Steve Awtrey: Just kind of go through some questions
Steve Awtrey: we're gonna go through with some just questions just to ask you, and you can answer them as expound on as much as you want, or as little as you want, just whatever you want to say about that. And at the end we'll give you a chance just to ask us some questions that you might have about us, and about Mcknight Crossings Church. So
Andrew Owens: Alright!
Steve Awtrey: So so to start off. Tell us your story in terms of your faith, journey.
Steve Awtrey: your prayer, life, and spiritual formation.
Andrew Owens: Okay. Well, I was a kid who always grew up in the church. From day one I was born on Palm Sunday, and 1st Sunday at church was on Easter when I used to
Steve Awtrey: Oh, yeah.
Andrew Owens: Used to joke that it was, you know, just one of those things that you know I was. I've been in church as long as I can remember. Actually, that was something that later on would doubt have doubts about. You know my own baptism, because I just you know
Andrew Owens: I got baptized at like 9 years old. I remember going to church, you know, helping my mom with preschool being in engaged in the youth group. But you know
Andrew Owens: it wasn't till college, and you know truly getting to start
Andrew Owens: when, my faith becoming my own, not just my parents. Which probably started happening in high school. But I just didn't realize how much so until college that I
Andrew Owens: I I remember one of the the my biggest doubts was actually, you know, did I really know enough
Andrew Owens: as a kid to get baptized? And I you know it was great moment. It's actually one of the reasons. As a youth minister. I always tell my parents that it's so important that parents be a part of the baptism as much as possible, because my dad was able to come back to me and say, Hey, you know I was there.
Andrew Owens: You might have not known everything, but none of us know everything, and because of that, I can tell you. You knew enough at the time, and that was just a special moment for me to really latch onto that. And so it was through that that I think I really
Andrew Owens: really started to make it my own. Obviously, I had decided to go into youth ministry. And so I was learning so much.
Andrew Owens: it's probably around that same time that prayer really started becoming more important to me than just a token of something you do at dinner, or before you go to bed, that I truly both saw the power in it, and ways of communicating with God, of just being in his presence.
Andrew Owens: Getting to do different experiences on campus as well as just hearing from so many different people and their stories. I think that's something fascinating that we don't take advantage of, as everyone has stories of
Andrew Owens: of prayer and faith that we don't know about. And so, hearing some of those really opened my eyes to the possibilities. One of the stories I've shared, both in
Andrew Owens: a sermon before, but also with my teams on a regular basis is that's 1 of the biggest times.
Andrew Owens: you know. I truly started to realize how prayer works was. In meeting my wife. Just because I had actually
Andrew Owens: broken up with her the year before. We dated for about 9 months and broke up. And that fall. Realized I still had feelings for her, wanted to to rekindle that, but at the time wasn't sure if she was
Andrew Owens: attuned to the same thing. And I actually
Andrew Owens: prayed that night. That I was like God, I'm going to text her, and if she'll just give me the time of day to to go for a walk with me. I'll know that this is meant to be, and you know, just to keep pursuing it. And I texted her at 1155 right before midnight, not knowing that she was praying on the other end, that if Andrew is text her before midnight, she'll give me a chance. Oh, my God!
Steve Awtrey: Goodness, yeah.
Andrew Owens: And so, you know, that was the story that actually didn't come out until about a few weeks later, that but I knew from that moment on that I was gonna marry her just from how that whole situation went. And so it was. And then, obviously, as I progressed.
Andrew Owens: going into youth ministry coming up to Vaughn Hill. And actually, before that you know, another big key moment in my life was actually getting the job at Vaughn Hill.
Andrew Owens: you know, as a minister you don't usually get to pick your church and so through college I had done internships, and so had ended up at 4th Avenue for most of my time. So me and my wife moved to Kentucky a little after we got married.
Andrew Owens: and so we were there for a few months before I ended up taking the Von Hill job. And it's 1 of the few times I got to actually, hey, let's go visit churches. And actually we get to pick our home church, if not, if nothing works out.
Andrew Owens: And so we'd been to a bunch of different churches, and I had made what I look back now as probably a more stupid decision. But at the time it felt right to me to. We're not going to worry about giving until we find our home church, and then we'll start giving there. And as time progressed and I wasn't finding a youth ministry job, and we were kind of bouncing between a couple of different churches. It was starting to weigh on my heart that and I.
Andrew Owens: Things don't feel like it's going right. Things feel off. I don't know what's going on, and I I remember
Andrew Owens: and caused one of the biggest fights we've ever had
Andrew Owens: We pulled into the church that we were kind of for sure. That's where we were. Gonna place membership
Andrew Owens: and it had been about 10 weeks. And I look at my wife and I go. Hey, I think we need to give
Andrew Owens: to this church today.
Andrew Owens: And she goes, okay, what are you thinking, and I said, all 10 weeks worth of what we haven't been giving.
Andrew Owens: And so, you know, giving a couple weeks was fine. But for
Andrew Owens: her she's the only one working right now. I'm not even working at the time being. And I've just told her I want to drop basically an entire paycheck on on the giving, and we fought back and forth, and it's 1 of the few fights I've won but we gave that day the entire makeup of our giving. And Vaughn Hill reached out within a week.
Andrew Owens: Of that happening. And so it was just, you know, the blessings of how God works in your lives through giving Scripture. That was another one that really has touched me in the last few years is
Andrew Owens: I had read the Bible off and on.
Andrew Owens: trying to do yearly ones, and was very, you know. I always tell people I always read to study for classes and all that stuff, but didn't always read just for personal sake. When 2020 happened, I read through the Bible in a year on my own, just doing my thing
Andrew Owens: and 2020, even though for everything that it was was actually not a big deal to me.
Andrew Owens: It was a okay year. I mean. It wasn't the greatest year because of Covid and all that, but it wasn't bad. 2021. I ended up not reading the Bible. I had started something in it falling through, and I didn't. And I still to this day say 2021 was one of the worst years of my life.
Andrew Owens: Some family stuff happened. Church stuff happened just personally, I felt depressed and couldn't get together, and I've told everyone I will never stop reading my Bible again just because of that year that every year I do a year in the Bible now, just to keep me going because of that
Andrew Owens: but really it is. It's been a walk of
Andrew Owens: just with every New year, God showing me new ways to learn, new ways to grow and it's exciting to to see what he has next
Steve Awtrey: Good, good.
Bret Blackford: Well, Andrew, can I just jump in on part of that? Is so you talked about as a young man your conversion story, and and you know later, having doubts, and of course all of us have that. But being in youth ministry has it impacted how you
Bret Blackford: talk to
Bret Blackford: young men and women, you know, thinking about what they're what they're going to do with their faith, you know, before baptism after baptism did it change how you relate to the
Bret Blackford: we'll have to.
Bret Blackford: Men and women
Andrew Owens: Absolutely. I mean, one of the biggest things I I would say is just simply
Andrew Owens: explaining to them that they don't have to have it all together, you know, especially with the this, this most recent generation.
Andrew Owens: and the anxiety that they have. You know, from day one i i noticed I had some teens that felt like they had to be perfect before they could could get baptized.
Andrew Owens: and that would surprise me. Because, you know, I
Andrew Owens: that's the whole reason you got baptized was to cover the fact that you you're so screwed up. And so I remember. That was that was a different, a different hurdle that I hadn't been expecting. And that's something I really, actually stress now, because of how much I've seen it in some of our teams today is is that you're never going to get it all together, you know. That's 1 of the things I tell people, I said. One of the worst feelings you'll ever have is that 1st time you sin on the other side of your baptism, because it just shocks you that oh, shoot! I still have to
Andrew Owens: work on this, you know, it's not over yet. And the second is that it's a starting point. And that's something I actually have to stress a lot more with parents than with teens is, you know. They worry that their kids not ready, you know. Oh, but you know they're not. And you know, I usually. That's where I talk about my own conversion and my own baptism. And so, you know, the truth is.
Andrew Owens: no one is ever ready. This is supposed to just be. You know that we only ask a couple questions. Usually, you know, when we baptize someone is, do you believe? And I said, after that, it's it's the growth of what comes from that belief, really. And so I would say, those are the 2 biggest ones that I've really learned from as I've done. Youth ministry
Bret Blackford: Thanks, Andrew
Don Fitzgerald: So you know we have. We all have people that have influenced us along the way and
Don Fitzgerald: made major impacts on us.
Don Fitzgerald: Yeah, who would you say for some of the people that had the
Don Fitzgerald: had the most influence on you and your walk
Andrew Owens: I'd say my parents by far.
Andrew Owens: It's it's funny.
Andrew Owens: years ago I would have said more my mom than my dad growing up. My dad worked a lot, and so I didn't see him as much
Andrew Owens: and but you know my mom was the one that was getting us to church my dad was going with us, he but you know, if he'd run late she always got us there, even on Wednesday nights. The life group.
Andrew Owens: Mom was the one that had been. She's been a preschool. She's still a preschool teacher, and she's been doing it since she was 16 and so she's where I learned a love of serving and and especially helping in the kids. I I honestly think that's where I got my youth ministry from is seeing her serve you know she was the one that
Andrew Owens: told us the Bible stories she was the one that would read the Bible to us. Pray with us in the car. Have those hard conversations. And so I'd say, you know, for for many of the beginning years. It was my mom
Andrew Owens: over the years, though it has been my dad that I lean more on in the recent years. You know he was the 1st one I called when I said, Hey, I think I'm trying out for this job as a preacher, you know. Would you pray for me, and you know, talk. He talked me through it. He's an elder at the church where I grew up
Andrew Owens: now, and he has a fascinating story that I've come to appreciate more. It was actually I was 13 years old when I found out the truth. My dad actually was a drug addict growing up, and he he went to a Christian school. Actually, he's the reason I he would not let me, he said. You can go to Lipscomb when you're in college, but you will not go to private school because he truly believed that his private school was. The reason he got hooked on drugs is because the teachers were
Andrew Owens: just assumed. Everyone was a good Christian boy and girl, so they didn't see that. You know he could tell people it was just Tylenol, and he would started taking drugs in high school.
Andrew Owens: But he
Andrew Owens: came to know God, you know, a closer relation, you know he was baptized and stuff already. But he it was truly. That's when his life turned around.
Andrew Owens: got back in school, met my mom, turned his life around, and it's now an elder at his church, and and just, you know, talking to him about, especially in these last few years, as he's, you know, retired from work and started really leaning into his eldership and role of
Andrew Owens: watching him serve. You know he which is the truth is, he's always been a server, I mean he was the one that would take me on Saturdays to our community pantry and help give out food to people. He was the one that prayed with people as we did a Thanksgiving thing, and so he was always there. But it's really been in these last few years that I've realized. You know, how much of a spiritual force he really has been, especially in prayer behind the scenes.
Andrew Owens: In recent years. I would just say,
Andrew Owens: there's a couple at our church
Andrew Owens: that have really shown me what it looks like to be on fire on mission for a ministry.
Andrew Owens: watching them as they have grown from.
Andrew Owens: you know a husband who was really just recently baptized a few years back. To, you know, a person that you know. Just a few months ago I told people I you know I would hope that he one day becomes an elder of our church, that we're at right now.
Andrew Owens: I have grown a lot of respect, for you know how they have relied. You know some of the things we say of just trust God, and you know, work it through, you know, and trust in him. I mean they they took those things to heart, and I mean, I remember once asking, Hey, what are you going to do if it rains or something, and they're like, Oh, it's not gonna rain. We're gonna pray pray through it.
Andrew Owens: And I was just like, Whoa, you know, that's bold. Okay, you know I wasn't ready for that, and you know, seeing them, as you know, the heart that they had to do some outreach and watch their ministry grow. That was actually one of the 1st experiences that I really started having of realizing how much I liked helping
Andrew Owens: others grow in their own ministry. Getting to watch them. They they actually had. When I was giving kids ministry they were the ones that came alongside me and said, hey, we want to take some of the kid events off your shoulder. So we and we'll we'll run them.
Andrew Owens: And I said, Okay, and so, getting to work with them, but really let them do it on their own, and grow was one of the coolest things especially as they made changes, and I got to be the guy that
Andrew Owens: instead of me getting yelled at, they were getting yelled at, and I got to be the guy that swooped in and say, - don't you know I'll you yell at me. I want them to to enjoy the moment. And so that was a really cool moment for me to to get to be
Andrew Owens: actually help another ministry grow for once, instead of asking for others to help me grow
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Hmm.
Don Fitzgerald: What about? Just personally, you have relationships that kind of help hold you accountable for your own growth and
Andrew Owens: I'd say my wife is a big one. She's definitely the one that calls me out when I'm straying one way or another, or getting into much into my head. I'd say. Actually, that couple was another. They were. They were friends before they they started in the ministry.
Andrew Owens: Actually
Andrew Owens: overall, I'd say, though that's 1 of the things I have lacked in the last few years at Bond Hill is our leadership. Has not
Andrew Owens: been there as much and walking beside me to hold me either accountable or just to encourage and that's 1 of the the struggles we've had over the last few years, but early on I had Todd Peckham was one of our elders, and he did a fabulous job of that of, you know
Andrew Owens: I remember him coming in one day, and he's he's still one of the few people who will will pull me aside on a Sunday and say, but how are you really doing? And we'll have a a brief chat of someone. I mean, he was the one that
Andrew Owens: the 1st person that ever got mad at me was chewing me out as a 22 year old.
Andrew Owens: stepped in between the 2 of us and said, No, no, no, Andrew's, you know.
Andrew Owens: Andrew's willing to talk, but you can't be yelling at him like that, and you know he he stood for Bat for me. He was also the guy that pulled me aside once and said, Hey, we need to have one of those hard conversations, and talked about how I'd heard a teenager's feelings without knowing it, and how we were gonna handle it, you know. So he he did a great job of of walking through those things with me
Andrew Owens: and I've always told him I think he's the re one of the the big, biggest reasons that I survived at Bond Hill, and was able to get past those 1st few years into the longevity that I have now. It's because of him. Others, I would say, are the other youth ministers in the area. You know we meet once a month. And they, they've been a great source, you know. People have come and gone. Steve Autry has come to some of those meetings before
Andrew Owens: as well as Mike Brown and Jerry Williamson before they moved on. And and so those have been people who, you know, Mike Brown is still one of the people I call when I need to talk through something, and
Andrew Owens: you know, say, Hey, is this me, or you know, am I right? Am I wrong? Am I in between? What do I need to do? And taking his advice on you know, hey? Maybe you should have come at it this way, or you know, maybe you should look better at it. This, you know, from another angle. Or did you try this? Or, you know, sometimes just saying, Hey, sometimes it
Andrew Owens: you get beat down, and you know it was no one's fault. But we get back up so
Steve Awtrey: Hmm.
Bret Blackford: And
Steve Awtrey: Good.
Bret Blackford: Well, Andrew, you you'd mentioned you had a
Bret Blackford: you've had a long, you know, tenure as a youth and family minister, which is great, and and you've worked alongside lead ministers. But you know, and looking for a lead minister, it's kind of got a broader responsibility. And what do you think are the 3 main responsibilities of a lead minister
Bret Blackford: What are the 3 things a lead minister should focus on
Andrew Owens: That's a good question.
Andrew Owens: Part of me says that that to some degree that depends on, you know, working with the elders, because, you know, I would say there's lots of things that it could be, but it kind of depends on the vision of the elders as much as the
Andrew Owens: you know myself.
Andrew Owens: I think obviously one is.
Andrew Owens: you know, as a lead pastor. I think one of the biggest ones is is just helping
Andrew Owens: all the other ministries in in their own walks.
Andrew Owens: You know how we you've got so many ministry, especially with, you know. I don't know how many ministry leaders y'all have but you know, at 1 point we had over 30 at Bond Hill.
Andrew Owens: and you know, most ministry leaders, deacons.
Andrew Owens: they aren't trained in ministry, and so, being someone that can walk alongside these people and help them to grow, help them to think about ministry outside of just their own little passion that they have, I think, is a huge one. Obviously preaching and teaching can be a part of it is A is a huge part.
Andrew Owens: for most people.
Andrew Owens: being that that truth being that energy that that reminds people of why we are brought together.
Andrew Owens: And then, just you know, I
Andrew Owens: I'd say pastoring to some degree, but that's also the elders. But coming alongside the elders and
Andrew Owens: seeing what the people need honestly, at the end of the day, I'd say that's the most important thing Obviously, Jesus is the 1st thing.
Andrew Owens: but then the second is the people, and so helping people to make that connection both to Jesus and to each other. Bringing those connections together. Helping. See? You know, I think that's the the beauty of of a leadership working well is when
Andrew Owens: you know you can get together with your elders and talk about the people and see the needs that are arising, and then a minister can then talk to the ministry leaders and talk about, okay, how do we build a ministry that that fits the needs that we have? I think that's that's the church working at its ultimate. I mean, that's what we see in Scripture is as need arose because the they're out there preaching and and growing.
Andrew Owens: they immediately are able to go. Hey? Okay, we. We've got this. Now let's give it to these ministers to take on. And and that's, you know seems to be. What helped them continue growing is that they could do that.
Andrew Owens: Did I say 3 things I don't even know
Bret Blackford: I think you got 4 actually.
Andrew Owens: Yep. Yep.
Bret Blackford: Good job.
Don Fitzgerald: Where would you place yourself on the introvert extrovert spectrum?
Andrew Owens: I used to be an extreme extrovert.
Andrew Owens: I would say I'm dead in between them now nowadays.
Andrew Owens: I think some of that is
Andrew Owens: especially these last few years carrying so much I've gotten tired. And so sometimes it's been
Andrew Owens: when he, you know, on a Sunday morning, after 5 things have gone wrong, and 1,800 questions. It's nice to sometimes just get away. But at the end of the day, man.
Andrew Owens: I still get energized by sitting around with 5 to 10 people just talking and they can be different people, you know, once the conversation gets started it doesn't matter and so at the end of the day I'm still an extrovert. My my wife is the extreme extrovert or introvert, and so I've learned better at being introverted because of her. That I can. I'm willing to sit and just, but at the end of the day people people excite me. And I love hearing from them
Bret Blackford: And Andrew, have you had an opportunity to share your faith with anybody, to sit down and study the Bible with somebody that is kind of struggling, you know, to understand what they believe
Andrew Owens: Usually it's been teenagers. There. There have been a a few adults over the years.
Andrew Owens: never to the point of. I'm more of a conversationalist, you know. That's usually where we how I end up talking to people.
Andrew Owens: never a less open book, chapter and verse as as much, but you know I I love it. When a team, you know, actually, one of the conversations I think of right now is, you know.
Andrew Owens: in a subway
Andrew Owens: probably 7, 8 years ago, with a kid who had just graduated. And you know, he he was struggling.
Andrew Owens: you know, has had a rough growing up
Andrew Owens: Dad didn't do much. It was his grandma that brought him. He really didn't want to come back to church, and you know I was trying to explain to him. He didn't have to go to grandma's church. There were other churches that he could go to.
Andrew Owens: but the importance of, you know, going to church, and really of knowing Jesus. And it was. It was so interesting. You know, it's
Andrew Owens: and really it's with everyone. It's so interesting. How
Andrew Owens: at the end of the day. There's really one or 2 things that are usually keeping a person from making that connection. You never know what it is, and you know, sometimes it could. Usually it's easy things, you know. It's a sin or something they don't want to give up, or, you know, just they're struggling with a certain thing. But there's always these, you know. I don't even call them oddballs, but it's you know, those out there you had never thought of. And this kid all of a sudden shows I just don't love the fact that when we get to heaven we don't have free will.
Andrew Owens: and I was like, What what are you talking about? And he's like, well, if there's no sin, there's no free will. And I was like, no, that's not. The point is like
Andrew Owens: the joy of heaven is that we have all the choices in the world, and the only choices that we don't have our sin. I was like. So you can still choose to do all sorts of things. Just the bad choices are off the table, and you know, watching those, you know, and that's my favorite part of talking with anyone, and that's why I love teaching is I love those I you know I call them those I moments where the eyes light up and they're just dug in with whatever they're telling. You know. We had a visitor in my class 2 weeks ago, and we were just doing little snippets of. I was showing a
Andrew Owens: women in the Bible and little snippets of you know. I think we did, Lydia Holda and
Andrew Owens: Phoebe and one other, and I was just showing them like how there's only, you know, one to 3 verses about each of these women, and yet
Andrew Owens: how powerful that
Andrew Owens: those moments made and talking about the importance of that. And I just this. This girl is in our room visitor, and I mean she's just letting up. I mean, she's she's never heard these stories before, I mean, I think I spent more time on Lydia than I've ever spent on telling her story in the past, because I'm watching this girl get so excited about the generosity of Lydia falling in love with, you know Jesus through Paul, and she's immediately opens up her home to Paul and says, No, no, you have to come to my house today and teach more, and so I love those moments of
Andrew Owens: when they come with people. I love having those conversations, and I love questions. I think those are the best way to come to know Jesus is through questions
Steve Awtrey: Well, Andrew, with.
Steve Awtrey: well, the way society is, there's all kinds of things in our culture. And we could go on about all that. But what challenges
Steve Awtrey: to the Church?
Steve Awtrey: Do you see? As preeminent
Steve Awtrey: and as a a person that would be leading us? How do you help a congregation rise to those challenges
Andrew Owens: I think truth is a big one that we face these days. Everyone thinks they have their own truth.
Andrew Owens: You know, that's that's something I have really, we've been. It goes back and forth for years. That that idea of, you know. Well, everyone has their own truth, or you know your truth is yours. My truth is mine, you know, in the teen world it's you know, that you know you do you? What's right to me is right to me, and what's right to you is right to you. That's that's 1. i think we will still be facing for years to come.
Andrew Owens: And that one, you know that that's that's an easy one of
Andrew Owens: I just point to Scripture on that one and say, No, we we have truth. You know we might not like it always. We might not, you know, understand it, but you know Jesus says I am the way, the truth and life, and you know that means our truth comes through him, and that has to be the the. You know, the universal truth of all things, and everything falls under that that there might be opinions on other things. But ultimately there, there are those things that can only be found through Christ.
Andrew Owens: And and that, you know, helping people find that is just simply walking through, you know, with the teenagers. You do it a little bit more bluntly. You know my favorite is just saying, you know, if that's the case, then if I decide, I want to be an axe murderer. Are you okay? Being my 1st victim. You know that
Andrew Owens: that truth gets changed really quickly when you start talking like that, because well, you know well, that's not. You know how quickly that changes.
Andrew Owens: I think another one. That we were facing. Actually, I was just listening to a podcast talking about this today. If is that
Andrew Owens: and it kind of goes hand in hand with that. That truth is that all all religions will get.
Andrew Owens: all faiths are under Jesus are under, you know. We'll get to heaven that oh, it doesn't matter if they're this or that, you know, we we all believe what we believe. That's that's okay. And it's like, well, you know, that's again going back to that same verse.
Andrew Owens: Jesus says, I am the way it's hard to get around the fact that Jesus ultimately says, no, it's Jesus, you know. If you say you believe in Jesus, you can be whatever denomination you want. I'm not willing to fight you on that. If you tell me you tell me you're Jesus. I'm willing to not fight you on it. But if you say no, Jesus was just a good man, you know I quickly
Andrew Owens: have to disagree with you on that one and but on the bright side. And you know, this kind of goes against the what? The question, but one of the things I do think is going well is, I think, especially this next generation, is more spiritually attuned.
Andrew Owens: I think the dangers with that, are they? They also believe in mysticism, mysticism when it comes to you know, I I had some senior girls just recently. Tell me how they went to a store to buy spirit rocks.
Andrew Owens: With a friend. You know. Then ghost voodoo in anything in the spiritual realm is is high, but because of that
Andrew Owens: they are much more in tune to hear stories, and I think they're actually much more attuned to hear what we would call the weird stories of the Bible. I think that's something, you know, we kind of sheltered from people for a while from. Because let's not talk about the weird stuff. I think they love to hear that stuff. Now they want to hear about the crazy stories of the Old Testament, of how God worked in crazy ways, because to them the spiritual world is much more real to them than I think it was in the past.
Andrew Owens: And I think that's something we'll have to address in in helping them see
Andrew Owens: where that spiritual world comes from, and how the Holy Spirit is a part of that
Andrew Owens: a conversation that we don't always have so
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Owens: I'm sure there's others that are coming to mind now that I could talk about
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Okay, good. Thank you.
Steve Awtrey: Don. You've got the next question.
Don Fitzgerald: Sorry. Yeah.
Bret Blackford: Number 7,
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Don Fitzgerald: tell us about a time where you sort of mentioned maybe some of this earlier, but a time where you disagreed with someone or someone disagreed
Don Fitzgerald: with you in the church environment.
Don Fitzgerald: and how you handle the situation
Andrew Owens: Man can think of a couple right off the bat.
Andrew Owens: no, I mean, I I've I've differed with people from fundamentals. You know, we just went through women roles, probably
Andrew Owens: 3 years ago.
Andrew Owens: And that was a an interesting one, because
Andrew Owens: somehow I got thrown in the forefront of Andrews, the face of change. So everyone that did not like change
Andrew Owens: came to me to talk about how I was wrong when I was trying to explain that. No, no, I'm only here as a parent, not as the youth, minister, youth, minister, brought forward the the families that had children who wanted to do stuff in the church like serve communion. I happen to have a daughter who would like to know what would? Why, she couldn't serve communion. So I was trying to be the parent, and somehow I got thrown into that. But you know whether it's that or you know I I
Andrew Owens: you know I had a parent argue with me.
Andrew Owens: Back in the day of how I was teaching the class that I was teaching and what was appropriate for what levels you know at the end of the day, regardless of what you're dealing with one of the things I've learned even just in the last few weeks. Still, the 1st thing I do is I have no problem. I tell people, you know I'm sorry you feel that way. You know I've learned that in. I'm sorry helps diffuse a situation
Andrew Owens: quicker than anything else. You know I'm clear to tell them. You know I'm sorry they feel that way. I'm not apologizing necessarily for what I did. You know. Obviously, if I screwed up or I truly have done something, you know, I'll tell them I did, you know? Usually I have to say something to the fix of I you know I did not mean it was not my intentions to hurt their feelings. I'm not trying to to be against them in this situation. I'm just trying to better understand. But you know.
Andrew Owens: going to them and talking it out, you know whether it's a lunch or hey? Can we get some time? You know one of the hardest things as a youth minister? Is that
Andrew Owens: because I'm not the head Honcho. Sometimes they don't want to talk to me.
Andrew Owens: and they want to go straight to a youth, you know, an elder or a preacher, and I get to find out secondhand that someone has an issue, and then try and make up after they've already told somebody else how it should be done. But the times I have been able to, you know it is. It's going to them and and trying to find a middle ground when there is middle ground to be had to apologize.
Andrew Owens: When it is my fault. And ultimately the there have been the times where I still, at the end of the day feel like this was the right call, or it was the right decision
Andrew Owens: and apologize. Tell them I love them not my intentions, but you know, that doesn't change what we're gonna do, and, you know, try to keep it and repair best as possible, and and let them make the choice. If
Andrew Owens: they decide to stay with it, not stay with it. But ultimately, also, it comes down to bringing in others. You know, most of those decisions were run through with elders before and afterwards of, you know, did they agree with what I was doing to make sure before we had those conversations, and a few times it went over my head.
Andrew Owens: I had one woman who went all the way to the elders and said I was wrong. I mean she she actually never would meet with me. She hung up on. She told me all the things that were wrong with me, and hung up on me before I had a chance to even talk to her, went to the elders and asked for my job.
Andrew Owens: That day, and you know they had my back on that one. But it was. It's it's interesting how you know, even in your best of times, of trying to work with someone that they won't listen.
Andrew Owens: but always trying to, you know. Reconcile, I think, is, is the best we can do
Steve Awtrey: -
Bret Blackford: So, Andrew, what are your thoughts and experiences with church missions, both foreign and domestic?
Andrew Owens: Not as much as I would like
Andrew Owens: because I grew up going my 4 years in high school. I went to Ecuador.
Andrew Owens: I just spent a month as an intern, and actually, before they even called an intern, I ended up starting an internship by accident. I did it as a senior trip. I asked my parents, instead of a senior trip of traveling. Could I go to spend an extra 3 weeks in Ecuador and college. I went to Wells
Andrew Owens: every year for 4 years, and then I got to Vaughn Hill, and they didn't do any out out there. I tried to build interest. It came very close once to partnering with Lafayette to do a Honduras trip, but that fell through because my high schoolers ended up not wanting to go or not being able to go, I can't remember which now.
Andrew Owens: But every year I take a group to Paragon, Arkansas, where we've done a trip in
Andrew Owens: at a Children's Home there. And so I have learned
Bret Blackford: Group. He gets them involved with that
Andrew Owens: Yeah, the youth group does that one. We started doing that. They were already going, and I kept that trip going as well as doing trips locally to our community. Hope Center. Another place called Birch Shelter Community Hope Center helps
Andrew Owens: feed and clothe people down on their luck. Not necessarily homeless, but
Andrew Owens: but then a Burt shelter is a mentally handicapped
Andrew Owens: residential apartment for those that are high enough level to kind of take care of themselves, but not enough that they should be completely on their own. So we would go every so often, play Bingo with some of them, and let them when stuff simple stuff like shampoo and coloring books. Honestly, that's actually one of the things I love about. Y'all, because that's actually I've
Andrew Owens: one of my weaknesses. I love missions. I've never been good at getting
Andrew Owens: of planning and finding them
Andrew Owens: like you can find them and say, hey, here's 1, and I love it. Let's go do it. But I I for some reason that's that has been something hard on me. I don't know why, but you know we were trying to find somewhere else to go, and every time I I kind of looked into something it kind of fell through and but you know
Andrew Owens: I had a friend that you know we had one of our ladies, did Berkshire, and she's like you should go to Berkshire, I was like, yes, let's go do it. And you know, that's where that started from. And Community Hope Center was the same way one of our people got involved there, and it was like you should take them there. And you know I had no problem going. Love them, getting involved in doing those things, but I don't know why.
Andrew Owens: making the decision of which ones were the were the best ones, or to go to never seem to work out for me
Bret Blackford: Yeah. Well, Andrew, how about I don't know what the demographics are for Vaughn Hill or for East Dalton. But do you have any experience in working with
Bret Blackford: groups of diverse people, and and you know, trying to to manage that. And and you know, making sure that everybody's heard. And you know what's your experiences and thoughts on that
Andrew Owens: I would say. I probably have more experience back when I was an intern than I do. 4th Avenue is a little bit more diverse than Vaughn Hill, Vaughn Hill. Unfortunately.
Andrew Owens: you know I I was the one that had to go around reminding people, hey? You can't say that.
Andrew Owens: You know I I will still never forget. You know someone saying, Oh, well, someone says, our token black person, I'm like, no, you can't say that you can't tell. Say that to people. You know I had a 1 of our close friends.
Andrew Owens: When I 1st got there.
Andrew Owens: He he always, you know he he was the person who he was mixed and light skinned enough that, you know, and he always joked that
Andrew Owens: he was the country guy in the group, and you know. So that was
Andrew Owens: that was the closest bond. Hill came for the longest time. Oh, to to being anything. You know. I I remember we had a kid visiting for a while, and you know.
Andrew Owens: bless his heart.
Andrew Owens: you could tell how he grown up. You know we're coming back from event that, you know. We we helped make sure he could go. You know that's 1 of the things I I had gotten very good at is paying attention to. But you know.
Andrew Owens: demographic wise, you know, half our kids could pay for an event. Half of them couldn't and and so I, making sure how things are paid. And you know this kid, you know, we had given him a scholarship so he could go on a trip.
Andrew Owens: and you know, he had run out he, he was a kid who.
Andrew Owens: you know, true middle school kid didn't bring half the stuff he needed, and
Andrew Owens: he was the annoying kid who couldn't stop talking. And he goes, hey, you know.
Andrew Owens: I kept trying to bug lotion off people. For his elbows, and I said, Hey, if you know you got ashy elbows, you gotta make sure you bring lotion, you know, and I got chewed out by his mom for being a racist for saying that. So that was an interesting. That was one of my 1st as a minister, you know, interracial things of going. Okay, how do I handle this? Because you know, I'm not trying to be, but you know
Andrew Owens: whether she is. Truly she feels, you know whether, you know.
Andrew Owens: for all I know. Maybe she he really did think I was calling him a racist, and so, you know, having to work through. That was was one. Ironically. They stopped going to church our church, because, more than anything, they were in it for getting the money from us.
Andrew Owens: and left when we stopped helping them, but ironically, she still calls me every so often to say that she loves me after all that actually called me recently to show me grand picture babies that he's now a dad and has his own daughter. But I would say, that's that's a weakness I have of. I don't have a lot of experience in that. But I you know I'm blessed. Actually, it was one of the decisions. You know. I live in Alton.
Andrew Owens: where it is much more diverse, and that's 1 of the one of the reasons we actually chose to live in Alton versus Bethalto, or East Alton or Wood River, is because I wanted my kids to be in a more diverse area that they would get that introduction. And so they are. They're at a school that
Andrew Owens: they see much more of a mixed generation of kids from rich and poor.
Andrew Owens: highly educated, not educated. Black, white Hispanic and you know I I love that, my my kids.
Andrew Owens: we'll nearly see it as much as both me and earlier grew up as
Bret Blackford: All right. Well, one more question in this is so. You're a youth and family minister. So you've got a lot of experience with youth and and just. We would like your thoughts on next Gen. Ministry. And how do you, you know, incorporate the kids into the church? And how do you incorporate their families into the church, you know, just holistically looking at that ministry. And so what are your thoughts? And you know, next generation ministries
Andrew Owens: Oh, I I love next generation of mystery. I don't. I don't know if you know this. I was the one that grabbed Jeremiah and Nathan have them teach a class at our conference this last year. Because they were the 1st people I thought of when people were talking about. You know. How do we do more of that? Because I I think what y'all have been doing, just from what I've heard from, you know Nathan and Jeremiah talking to them. I I think that's great stuff, because I I think the more we can
Andrew Owens: plug our kids from all the way down to 0 into our church. I've even seen that with our own kids that I have seen more retention and faith based kids come out of the church when they have been, have, when they have felt like they were a part of the church, and not a part of the church
Andrew Owens: and so that that has really, I mean that has lit a fire in me over the years to the point that because I'm over so many ministries, I, and it's a blessing and a curse. You know I have purposely made sure my teams are plugged into ministries. And whenever a volunteer spot opens up. I actually offer it to my teams, usually before anyone else. Adult wise because
Andrew Owens: of how much I want them to be plugged in. How I've seen that that they, even though they've checked out. They keep coming back to church
Andrew Owens: months after, I can tell. They're kind of pulling away, because oh, I don't want to give up that job, I and how that that holds them on, and and how they they feel like they got responsibility, how they feel like. They're a part of something bigger than themselves. I think you know.
Andrew Owens: including them in worship at times when you can, you can do that, and even simple things, you know. One of the things I've noticed is some simply saying, you know.
Andrew Owens: you know you ever, always. You always have that. You know that that 2 year old that keeps laughing, that everyone you know everyone can hear them, or that baby that has been crying for a little bit. You know
Andrew Owens: I love it. When you know I'm listening to a podcast or I've seen it happen a few times when the preacher just simply says something like man I love that we can hear babies in the room, because that means we have life that we're continuing to grow. I think little things like that make a huge difference, reminding parents that
Andrew Owens: we love their kids, and we're glad they're here.
Andrew Owens: I think most parents just want to hear that they're doing a good job by showing up, because that was for some of them that that alone was a struggle.
Andrew Owens: and to remind them that we're here in their corner, and that they're helping out giving them a chance to have to talk to other parents about what's going on, I think, is a huge thing, but any any way, we can make a big deal about families, I think, is always almost going to be a win for you.
Bret Blackford: Okay. Thanks.
Steve Awtrey: Okay.
Steve Awtrey: You're on
Andrew Owens: Muted Don
Steve Awtrey: You're muted, Don
Don Fitzgerald: Sorry about that.
Don Fitzgerald: We're a congregation of small groups and and just
Don Fitzgerald: kind of talk to us a little bit about any experience you've had in small groups. And
Don Fitzgerald: you know, we we see a big importance in that and just building community
Andrew Owens: Oh, absolutely!
Don Fitzgerald: And just kind of what's your experience with that and your feelings about small groups
Andrew Owens: No, actually, I was just talking to our preacher today that you know. Usually we've done a spring and a fall one, and we had. They didn't do a spring one this year our teams meet all the time for life group. Because I refuse to stop it. We take a break in the
Andrew Owens: Christmas to, you know, from November to
Andrew Owens: early January, and that's the only break we have other than sometimes in the summer we we take a few weeks. But honestly, I I think that's where one of the things we're hurting right now at our at our church is because we didn't do small groups.
Andrew Owens: that truly, is the only way people will feel connected, I think.
Andrew Owens: Because as soon as you get over a hundred people. You start to not know somebody. And as soon as you start, as soon as you can walk in a door and feel like you don't know everyone. You start to feel disconnected, and the only way I have ever seen that be able to pull back around is in small groups. Is that? That's how they they feel like they have a connection, because where your friends are is where you're gonna end up going.
Andrew Owens: That's I think that's 1 of the reasons we lose so many young people is because, you know, when you're not the hub of where the young people are, they're going to go to wherever their friends are going. And you know sometimes you can. You can help that sometimes you can't.
Andrew Owens: But I have seen it time and time again. And when I say small groups, I don't just mean life groups, you know, study groups. You know this, can. It can be a men's Car club. It can be a you know, grief share. I think I saw that y'all have grief share. We have grief share, too, and you know we've got. We've got 15 people at our grief share right now that are started showing up, and some are starting even to come to church because of that, because a group got together to start sharing life.
Andrew Owens: and in doing that
Andrew Owens: it makes the gospel accessible. You know, people are able to share what's going on in their lives, and you know you hope that you can get them plugged into a life group where they can truly go a little deeper. But it's only when you can have
Andrew Owens: real face to face conversations that you can actually do discipleship. Because the truth is, I I you know me or anyone else could, could stand up and preach all day long until we're blue in the face.
Andrew Owens: But that doesn't mean anything to them until they've actually put action to it with with people side by side and face to face. And so, you know, having those connections are truly some of the most important things you can have and finding creative and new ways to help people make those connections. Because that's that's the hardest thing is when you have a family that just says, Well, I don't have the time, or you know, I don't feel like I connect with anyone you know, helping them say, Okay, let's find 2 people you can connect with and start a group there.
Andrew Owens: Because that that's how they're gonna make connection. That's ultimately how those relationships bring them closer to Christ.
Bret Blackford: Right. And, Andrew, you talked about, you know, grief share. And you know there's times in people's lives where, you know, like weddings and funerals, right? Yeah. Looking for a church. And especially, you know, funerals, you know. Have you had an experience?
Bret Blackford: you know, somebody's been diagnosed as cancer? They've got 6 months to live, and walking with somebody through that journey, or being there, being asked to do a funeral. And and you don't have to give specifics. But have you
Bret Blackford: been there to share that part of somebody's life? And as a minister, you know, those are things that you know hard things to do, but they're expected. So if you can maybe get
Bret Blackford: thoughts on or color on what your experience has been
Andrew Owens: No, actually, the the one funeral I have been a part of is is a lady at our church who
Andrew Owens: I didn't know her as well as some knew her. But I I knew her her sons pretty well and she would come up to the church, and I had always get to steal some time with her
Andrew Owens: not because she came to study with me, usually just because she came to talk to somebody else, but she was always. She always came early, and I always took that time to to talk to her, and I was blessed that she actually ended up asking her sons. I didn't know about this, but she had asked her sons to make sure I get to be a part of that, the funeral because of those moments. But it is. It's it's a a precious thing.
Andrew Owens: getting to talk to those people that let you in, especially those that let you in you know we had a guy recently passed away who? Who, unfortunately
Andrew Owens: his answer was to push many away
Bret Blackford: Yeah.
Andrew Owens: He was a private man, and and pushed many away, and so that was a little bit harder. But it is
Andrew Owens: to help someone walk through that. You know all the emotions that go through that. I got to work with a family for a little bit after they had a stillborn
Andrew Owens: specifically with the the kids. And you know, one of the kids was just hurt while the other one was angry. And you know, being able to
Andrew Owens: switch gears back and forth to the the 2 different kids. Because, you know, in in those moments it's less about a right answer and more about just being there in the moment.
Andrew Owens: you know, I always. I always tell our teenagers. That's 1 of the questions that comes up a lot is, you know. What do I say to them in that moment? What do I do? And I said, You know, I said, I said, talk less. You know.
Andrew Owens: Anything you say is gonna sound stupid at the end of the day to somebody that's going through grief like that, I said. You know, just showing up and being there, I said, usually the best things you can say is, I am so sorry this happens. Is there anything I can do for you and I said, and just stop there, you know those, and just and just, and
Andrew Owens: just be there for when they really do need something, even if it's just. Can I get you another glass of water? I think those are
Andrew Owens: huge things, and I think that's what Scripture points to. I mean, that was Jewish teachings were, you know.
Andrew Owens: like Job's friends, they had it right at the beginning. They they sat with the job for the 1st 7 days. They did exactly what they're supposed to, and then they open their mouths
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: we got our last question. Give you a chance to ask questions. But one more before we do that in our last zoom.
Steve Awtrey: You just you mentioned made the comment that you did not like preaching.
Steve Awtrey: so I think we would be amiss in not giving you a chance to explain some of that.
Steve Awtrey: because obviously, we're hiring a guy that's gonna be doing a lot of preaching. So
Andrew Owens: Correct. And and hopefully, you know, I I don't fully mean that if I wouldn't have applied for the job if that was
Andrew Owens: yeah, yeah, no it.
Andrew Owens: A lot of it is twofold one, I mean, I for years I always thought I was going to be the youth minister who stated until I was 60. I mean, you know, people like Jerry Williamson and Mike Brown, who did it till they were 50 60 years old, were people I looked up to. That was my thought all my life. That that's what I would do. Didn't preach very much.
Andrew Owens: Only in the last year had I or 2. Had I gone to our preacher and said, Hey, I'm willing to take. He knew I didn't, you know, necessarily want to preach more. I think a lot of that had less to do about not wanting to preach, and more of.
Andrew Owens: I'm already doing so much when it came to preaching that was adding a whole, you know no one was taking my classes so I could preach, so I was adding a whole nother thing on top of it all, so I didn't want
Andrew Owens: yes, much but in the last year I had really felt bad. Say, hey, you know.
Andrew Owens: tell him you'll take more. And honestly, I didn't think he'd give me any more. He gave me about one a year and he probably gave me about 3 in the last year.
Andrew Owens: And and so that was a a blessing. But
Andrew Owens: really it's not that I hate preaching. It's just I'm still terrified of it every time I get up, and you know everyone jokes that it doesn't look like I'm nervous. You know. I don't know if y'all saw the sermon I did, but I get dry mouth
Andrew Owens: recently that when I get nervous so I still get nervous when I get up and preach every time. Because there's something about all those people in the room that still gets me. But at the end of the day I I do enjoy the challenge of
Andrew Owens: taking 20 to 30 min to try and get a point across to some people and and really
Andrew Owens: help them see something they haven't seen before. You know. I I think
Andrew Owens: one of the most interesting things that I've never gotten to do, because, you know, I'm not. The preacher is. I've never gotten to do my own series. I've never gotten to actually do more than a 1 off sermon, I think. The the sermon I had connected the choose. Joy was actually the 1st time Brian has ever let me even be a part of his series. Usually he wants me to just do a 1 off and not be a part of his series, because he's already got it fleshed out how he wants to do it. So that was interesting. And I actually really enjoyed that because
Andrew Owens: there's something about, you know. I'd love to hear from y'all and be, you know, one day, and you know, if I got the job and be able to. And y'all say, Hey, we really think that the church really needs to hear about this right now. I think that would actually excite me, because the challenge of Okay, you know, we really feel like this is something they need to hear. Now, now, what does Scripture say that I can pull out and help them see that I think that would be fun. But I also think, you know
Andrew Owens: for for complete, you know. Honestly, I don't think I should always be the one preaching, and I think that's you know. I think if I remember correctly, that's something that y'all were already doing. Y'all had different people preaching even back when y'all had a preacher, if I remember correctly. But you know, because sometimes I'm not going to be the expert in the room, and I think it's important, you know, whether that's bringing someone up and having them do interview style or a testimony.
Andrew Owens: or or letting them preach for that Sunday, you know, if if we're doing a series on anxiety and depression well, then, we'll shoot, you know, having, you know, one of our counselors from Cfs. Get up and do something about that, you know. Obviously, I'd still want to preach on it and talk about it. But you know, giving them a Sunday to to speak words into. That, I think, is very wise, letting others have a voice in the room
Steve Awtrey: So you don't think if you were hired as a preacher, you'd be miserable, the rest of your life.
Andrew Owens: I would not
Steve Awtrey: Okay.
Andrew Owens: And and, as as I said, it was funny.
Andrew Owens: you know. Honestly, you know, I don't remember if I if I share this in the last one, you know, this whole thing was brought on by a prayer I had, and I really felt God put it on my heart
Andrew Owens: that to put my name in at Mcknight, and so I got all the kicking and screaming out that day. When he, when I had that moment and I actually, Steve was one of the people I called because I'm like man, I I really don't. Am. I even qualified for this? Because, you know.
Andrew Owens: this is not what I was expecting to do. If you had told me just a month ago. Hey? You're gonna you're gonna apply for a preaching job. I would have
Andrew Owens: said, Yeah, right? You know not. That's not not real, you know, I was joking about it. And
Andrew Owens: yeah, you know.
Andrew Owens: since then, you know, I I really I I have started to get excited about it. The the idea of what the possibilities are. Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: And how does your wife feel about that? And moving, possibly moving
Andrew Owens: I'd say, you know, she she told me today. Pray, she actually prayed over me before this meeting, and you know, she said. God's will be done. You know she's willing. I will say that's 1 of the things you know. Obviously this is further on. But you know
Andrew Owens: she would like to still work where she is. She's willing to commute but she is actually that that which actually that that has recently been the hardest part of all this is my she recently
Andrew Owens: It found out that there might be a director position for her in in the near future, and she is really put it for those that don't know. My wife works with the the mentally handicapped she works with those that in the what they call scylla. So these are those who are
Andrew Owens: able to be on their own. Enough that they can actually have get to real, have a normal life for the most part, where they get to be. In a in a house with a few others, and they have staff that come in and help cook for them and stay there. They they 24 h care, but you know they they do their own chores. They they can do do a lot of their own things and get to feel like they're part of community and not have to be
Andrew Owens: in the home that they have at Beverly Farm, and so they're hoping to open another Silla in the next year, and if that happens they would make her director, and that's been a dream of hers that she's been working on for the last few. So she she that was her one thing was like, do you think we could still make that work. And I was like, I mean, it's it's 30 min from my house to Mcknight from here. So I was like, surely if we move there's somewhere in between that we could live, and it not be too bad for her to get back up.
Andrew Owens: But obviously that's a little bit further down the road. But yes, she she is. We were actually just talking. I don't know if any of y'all knew that know the name, Roger Harmony. He just passed away from our church, and we were just commenting on it over the weekend that Roger Harmon, every time I preach, came up to, would come up to, not me, but to my wife, and says, Well, are you ready to be a preacher's wife? Because I think it's coming?
Andrew Owens: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Owens: that was his compliment every time. So we we were reminiscing that. Well, I guess Roger knew what he was talking about.
Andrew Owens: So yeah.
Steve Awtrey: That's that's good. Yeah, Roger Harmon. When I 1st started counseling my 1st counselee.
Steve Awtrey: he and his wife brought a couple over for me to do marriage counseling with.
Steve Awtrey: I didn't know what I was doing, and and the 1st thing he said was, he said he had had an affair, and I had to deal with that, and it was like, Oh, gosh! It was
Andrew Owens: Oh, my!
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. So Roger, Roger brought my 1st counselee over. So
Steve Awtrey: yeah, okay, so now it's time for you to ask us some questions. Do you have any questions about our church or our structure, or anything like that?
Andrew Owens: Yeah. You know one of the things I I think I asked it in the last meeting, but I I just love to hear from the rest of you, you know.
Andrew Owens: I'll I'll start with
Andrew Owens: you know. What? What are the challenges that that y'all are facing right now as a church, and kind of how have y'all been trying to handle them?
Don Fitzgerald: Go ahead, Brad, you summarize that man
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, go ahead, Brett, do a chat, chat. Gpt on that one
Bret Blackford: Yeah. And, Andrew, I don't know. I I'm guessing, you know, just talking with other ministers that we're probably not unique. And and there's just a lot of
Bret Blackford: the the culture is less receptive to Christianity. Now, just
Bret Blackford: most churches are losing people, and
Bret Blackford: you know the the youth seems to be less interested. It's good, you know. What you're saying is that there may be more spiritually minded, and so hopefully we can tap into that. But you know. It's just.
Bret Blackford: you know. We just find that fewer people are interested on in spending their Sundays going to church.
Bret Blackford: you know, after Covid, you know, a lot of churches got hit with that, and you know we did as well, and just not as many people came back after that, and you know the the political scene. Now, you know, there's every there's such a divide, and you know, how do you bring diversity together? Of political opinion, of culture, of races? You know, those are the kinds of things that that we're trying to
Bret Blackford: to deal with right. And and it's it's just a lot of prayer that we need to have to manage that. And so.
Bret Blackford: you know, I just thank. I'm thankful for the elders in that. We
Bret Blackford: are trying to be very true to what we understand God's will to be without watering it down and kind of stepping back. You know we are aware of everybody's sensitivities, but you know we are going to be a church that we feel allows women to have certain roles in worship.
Bret Blackford: We believe that the Church allows, you know, instruments, and and allows diversity of thought and opinion. And you know, we're trying to say, Yeah, we we understand
Bret Blackford: people are going to be confused about this. But you know, this is who we are. And so that's kind of a rambling way to kind of explain who we are and kind of the things we're dealing with. And I just think there's some things unique to us as a congregation just in, I think, where we are in our
Bret Blackford: I guess people in our faith background. You know we've you know, with our how we treat women's roles and music.
Bret Blackford: It may be a little bit unique, but I think there's a lot that we're dealing with that's similar to other Christian churches as far as the loss of faith. And just generationally, what's going on in our culture
Andrew Owens: Okay.
Steve Awtrey: Another thing is we, we feel like we have a generation imbalance.
Steve Awtrey: So then, your your generation and younger is where we're lacking some numbers some families that just to step up and to really lead
Andrew Owens: They need to be present. Yeah, yeah.
Don Fitzgerald: And 2 as a church. We, you know our leadership.
Don Fitzgerald: And I. It is pretty solid, but it's also very getting older.
Don Fitzgerald: and I think, transferring some of the key leadership to that next generation is a a big challenge in
Don Fitzgerald: one that we're very aware of and very much trying to concentrate on to
Don Fitzgerald: get some of our younger men to step up, and.
Don Fitzgerald: you know, step into the roles of elders and
Don Fitzgerald: just because, as Brett said. It's it's such a challenge these days to keep
Don Fitzgerald: relevance, you know, to our younger people. They
Andrew Owens: They don't have the time
Don Fitzgerald: Yeah, and well, and the priorities are
Andrew Owens: Yeah.
Don Fitzgerald: Just all over the board, you know, and so it's
Don Fitzgerald: it's a it's a difficult situation, and
Andrew Owens: One day.
Don Fitzgerald: Very concerned about
Andrew Owens: I'm I'm actually kind of curious kind of based off that. You know. This is something that I've talked to our own elders about before, you know. Do you all
Andrew Owens: do you all have any? You know I don't want to say, mandates, but do you all have any kind of accountability for those that have said. They're members of your church
Don Fitzgerald: To those that have said that they're members of the church
Andrew Owens: Yeah.
Andrew Owens: Because obviously, if a visitor comes, you can't say, Hey, you have to come to class, because you know, they don't have any investment. But you know.
Andrew Owens: do you all have anything that y'all do with members? Those who have placed membership, or, as they place membership to kind of say, hey? This is kind of what we expect of someone
Don Fitzgerald: Well, I would say, we've done that hopefully, in a way that is more
Don Fitzgerald: encouraging. You know Steve Walker is sort of headed up
Don Fitzgerald: for what we call a next steps ministry, where
Andrew Owens: Okay.
Don Fitzgerald: And there are people that are visiting or considering, you know, coming to Mcknight, or
Don Fitzgerald: wanting to know about what it means to be a member.
Don Fitzgerald: You know we have a special class. If it is a
Don Fitzgerald: that they can sit down, and Steve
Don Fitzgerald: and his wife go over. You know many things about what's involved in being a member at Mcknight Crossings, and what we believe and
Don Fitzgerald: and find out more about them. You know as to where they are in their faith journey so hopefully.
Don Fitzgerald: You know, there's a concerted effort to be sure that people who are anticipating membership
Don Fitzgerald: what's going on? You know what you know. I don't know that we would say it's a list of expectations or anything like that.
Bret Blackford: But, Andrew, I guess I would say just a little bit on that. And so
Bret Blackford: we do have a class for those people wanting to place membership or getting baptized. And and Steve Walker has that. And there's some documentation that's shared with those individuals.
Bret Blackford: And in there there is kind of a list of, you know member expectations, you know. You know, here's what we think our members should do, and it's not like the elders are looking at that and calling people out. And you know, are you tithing, you know? Are you coming to Sunday's classes and things like that? Now, when we get together as elders. We always talk about the congregation. And you know, maybe there's people that we need to follow up with a phone call, you know, things like that. But
Bret Blackford: you know we do have some expectations. We lay out for new members. But it's not like we have a structure on how we follow up
Steve Awtrey: Did we lose you, Andrew?
Steve Awtrey: Be there?
Steve Awtrey: Maybe I made him mad. He just
Bret Blackford: Yeah, I don't see. Oh, there he is!
Andrew Owens: Sorry about that, knocked out my head. I knocked out my earbud and put it back in, and it decided that was me cancelling it so
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Don Fitzgerald: You'd heard enough
Bret Blackford: Yeah.
Andrew Owens: You were saying about the class
Bret Blackford: Well, I was just saying in that class there's some documents that are shared with them that kind of lay out expectations. And you know here's what they do. But, as I was saying, the elders really don't call people on the carpet, you know, when we, the elders, get together we meet probably twice a month, and we always talk about the members and how they're doing. And if there's anybody that we need to give a call, you know if there are people that we haven't seen in a while, and
Bret Blackford: you know to follow up with. But it's not like we have, you know, who's tithing. And and you know who's missing.
Bret Blackford: Yeah, what is Bible class? Kind of a thing
Andrew Owens: That that was just something I know we've we have faced recently of, you know.
Andrew Owens: How do you?
Andrew Owens: You know, stress to especially our our members. You know we're we're we had a our. The last time we did life groups.
Andrew Owens: all of our newest members and all of our even some of our visitors were all jumping into life groups, but it was some of our older
Andrew Owens: members that have been there, for, you know, anywhere from 15 plus years at this church who
Andrew Owens: we're kind of like. We've done life group. We don't want to do it. It was they we were trying to figure out a way of you know. How do? How do you hold these people accountable to say, hey, you're the ones that are supposed to be leading these groups. Now.
Bret Blackford: Right.
Andrew Owens: And you know that's kind of the point. And actually, I love the phrasing next step, because I think that's something. I don't know what church it is, but I really like the, you know. The truth is, we can always what's the next step we can take, no matter how old you are. What's the next step? You, you know, if
Andrew Owens: if you've joined a life group, okay, maybe you need to start hosting a life group or join, you know, leading one, you know. Okay, hey? You've been sitting in the queue for a while, you know, just as a member or a visitor. What's your next step. Is it time to place membership? Is it time to? Okay? Maybe it's time to get plugged in and volunteer? So I've always liked that phrase, what's that? The next step you can do?
Andrew Owens: Because I think there's always a next step that we can be looking forward
Steve Awtrey: Do you have any other? Any other questions?
Andrew Owens: Yeah. You know, in in the, you know, to to go away from the problems, you know. What do you? What do you think you're doing right. You know. What? What do you? What's where your wins? What have you been excited about recently?
Steve Awtrey: Well, we've since Covid. We've had several members, people in the community that have come to church
Steve Awtrey: and have continued and have been challenged with the next steps. That's been exciting something that has happened.
Steve Awtrey: Nathan, with the youth group. He's done a great job, and we have a growing youth group that's been good.
Steve Awtrey: We have. We you feel like it's really important as far as reaching out the poor.
Steve Awtrey: And one of the things that we're doing is we have a food pantry. Now we're in transition with that and trying to figure things out with that our lady who was really leading it is, is stepping back and trying to bring some other people into that
Andrew Owens: Probably our active ministry is
Steve Awtrey: Pickleball.
Andrew Owens: Yeah, I just started playing. So my kids fell in love with it recently. So
Steve Awtrey: Oh, really
Andrew Owens: All for it.
Andrew Owens: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Owens: Actually, I've seen them playing because that's been the same day as our Youth Minister meetings. So
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, right.
Andrew Owens: You know you mentioned the community. You know. How. How is your interaction with the community? You know what are ways you're plugged in around the area
Steve Awtrey: Well, like, I said with we've done it with these the food pantry. We do it. And with the food pantry it's more than just giving out food, especially one of our ex elders
Steve Awtrey: is and others have gone and and talked to people. They need some work done around their house. They've done it. We've done some faith in action
Steve Awtrey: to where we've done work in the community with people that have needed some work done trying to do that.
Bret Blackford: Well, at the, you know, when the start of school we have relationships with the one of the elementary schools, and we also do at Christmas time. You know, we we collect gloves and coats and things like that and try to distribute those. And so we're we're trying to look at different ways like that. Also to reach out to the community. You know, Easter, we try to do a big hoop to do, and, you know, reach out to the community that way as well
Don Fitzgerald: We're a polling place for all the elections to open up our building and
Andrew Owens: And and I will say that that's 1 of the things I've really admired about y'all's church. Over the years is that you know I I don't.
Andrew Owens: I'm sure you've had to say no to some people, but you know I have seen y'all open up your building. That's 1 of the things that I wish we had have been able to do better. Every time we've seemed to let somebody use our building the we've ended up running them off in a year or 2, because you just can't. They can't get along with them. But you know I I've seen your building always getting used, whether it's even other churches, you know the the leadership meet meeting, y'all did with the elders.
Andrew Owens: And leadership. I thought that was awesome. I didn't get to go this year, but I went last year.
Andrew Owens: so
Steve Awtrey: Good. No.
Steve Awtrey: we have like we. We have a trunk or treat every year with the community. We have several come in for that and Easter egg hunt
Steve Awtrey: things that are free. We find it.
Steve Awtrey: Lot of people will come from
Andrew Owens: But aren't you all the ones that do the worship at the Park?
Andrew Owens: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, we do that. Yeah, we do worship of the Park in September. And that's and, interestingly enough, I don't know if it was coincidence, or what? But the last 2 times we've done it.
Steve Awtrey: We've had people come for the 1st time when we were in the park, and they've become members. I know the Mintons and Sandra
Steve Awtrey: Sandy, the 2 that you know. That's
Steve Awtrey: it's been good. We enjoy being we just enjoy trying to be creative with different things.
Andrew Owens: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Effort!
Steve Awtrey: So yep!
Andrew Owens: You know, obviously, I can. I can read your website, the the core values and stuff. But you know.
Andrew Owens: you know I just wanted it from your own point of view. You know what's what's your vision for the church
Don Fitzgerald: Well, I'd say overall, I think certainly we want members and visitors to
Don Fitzgerald: for us, for us to be a place where members and visitors can grow in their relationship
Don Fitzgerald: with God and with Christ and and feel like that.
Don Fitzgerald: It's more than a meeting place. It's a place where.
Don Fitzgerald: you know there are significant opportunities for spiritual formation and growth.
Don Fitzgerald: but
Don Fitzgerald: you know, I think, that summarizes it for me
Bret Blackford: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. Being a lighthouse in the community is what we'd love to be.
Steve Awtrey: I think we, our fear is that if we close down. Would anybody notice? I think people would notice so
Andrew Owens: Yeah, no, and I, by the way, I love your your core values.
Andrew Owens: So that was one of my 1st excitements. When I reading those. I thought that that was. Those were well said
Andrew Owens: and I love that. Everyone's mission seems to be the same thing. It's always oh, and I can't remember what y'alls is. I know ours is follow strength and serve, but it's always the same. It's oh, delight! Y'alls is delight
Steve Awtrey: July.
Steve Awtrey: Serve and
Andrew Owens: Encourage strength. Encourage? I think, yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah, it's always
Steve Awtrey: It? Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Owens: How do you strengthen your faith? How do you encourage the relationships? And how do you serve your community? Everyone seems to say the same 3 things which really is. It comes down to those 3. Actually, that was actually to give Nathan Strickland some credit. He's actually one of the reasons I actually took this seriously when I really started thinking about putting my name in was
Andrew Owens: He had said something Steve. I don't know if he was meeting with you or or not. But I he was.
Andrew Owens: He was talking about his breakdown, of
Andrew Owens: making sure he he had a percentage, basically of how much they were getting faith versus how much fun they were in fellowship they were having versus how much serving they were having. And that's actually something I I have tried to do with my own youth group of, you know, finding balance and and where to where those needed, and and hearing him talk about that
Andrew Owens: the thought
Don Fitzgerald: Keep up. Don't try to keep up with Nathan with
Andrew Owens: Oh, no, him and data, man, it's I love it.
Andrew Owens: I plan to. If I get to work with him I might give him some side projects to work on, because I love the way his brain thinks about that stuff.
Andrew Owens: But no, I I was very impressed. And actually that was one of the things one of the one of the hardest things making this decision to try out for this was the fact that
Andrew Owens: my kids wanted me to be their youth minister. And so it was breaking my heart to think that I might not get that.
Andrew Owens: but realizing that if I could pick any other youth minister of the guys that I in the area that I know Nathan is the one I wanted, and so, hearing him talk like that was was really what gave me a lot of peace, of knowing going into this, that you know how he was already thinking about those things.
Andrew Owens: No, actually, you kind of hit on one, you know. One of the things I've always promised my girls is that you know I would kind of get a feel for what? What women can do in a church.
Andrew Owens: I am pretty sure one of my daughters might be a preacher one day, so the last thing I need is to be at a church where they fire me once the day she gets ordained, or something to be
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Andrew Owens: But and that, and that, honestly, has been one of the the biggest pushes for why, I wasn't sure if I we were gonna be able to stay at Vaughn Hill at the end of the day ultimately, because the older my daughters got
Andrew Owens: It was clear she especially my oldest. She she has a she has a heart for ministry. Whether she sees it as ministry or not, you know, in her mind I think she just sees this caring for people.
Andrew Owens: but I mean we we you know, you know those oddballs, and you have a youth group that don't fit in, and you do your best, but they just they don't want to be involved. They're here because Mom made them my daughter for the last 3 weeks has done her best to get this boy connected to our youth group.
Andrew Owens: and more than I would even try. And I've been so impressed and she does. She has a heart. She gave a Devo at Middle School week last year that was already well thought out, and I mean could have made me prouder. But I it just you know. It hurt me to realize she was at a church, that she was already doing all she could do.
Andrew Owens: that we had to fight just for her to pass communion, and people still
Andrew Owens: get upset when the girls get up to do communion
Andrew Owens: and and so that that broke my heart. And so that that was one of the things we had said a long time ago is, if we were to ever leave, we would never step backwards again
Andrew Owens: came to women's so I I wasn't sure what I I knew. I knew y'all were more past where where Vaughn Hill was, but I wasn't sure where all that was, what she could do
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. So yeah, she would be pretty free to do a lot of that stuff is good. We've
Steve Awtrey: we've had women doing some sermons preaching, and it's been good. We've been very pleased with some of the talent of some of the women at our church.
Steve Awtrey: so
Andrew Owens: Oh, and going along with family. One of the I really is the last question I I had.
Andrew Owens: that I cared about asking tonight.
Andrew Owens: This is.
Andrew Owens: you know, what? What are your expectations? You know. Obviously, we've talked about. You know the the role of the the preacher a little bit, you know. I've seen the job description. You know. We've talked, you know.
Andrew Owens: of my family. You know. Obviously, I've got an introverted wife that doesn't mind shaking hands and meeting people, but you know that would wear her out. And and she that was one of the things she she asked us. You know she is curious, you know.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Andrew Owens: As a youth minister. We were expected to be at everything at our church at Bond Hill, and what is that expected at your church?
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. Well, I can answer that from experience. Being in ministry with this group, this part of is the system we've merged. But my wife is introverted, and she was. There wasn't a lot of expectations of her.
Steve Awtrey: She
Steve Awtrey: you know she came when she could but her number, you know, especially when our kids were born. She was stayed at home with them. She was. She came with me a lot of activities until children came around, and then it just wasn't possible. And and she didn't get critiqued for that. They really respected the idea that her being a mom came 1st
Don Fitzgerald: Yeah, I think that sums it up. Pretty good,
Don Fitzgerald: I think hopefully, it would be a place where she would feel a part of the community, and, you know, develop friendships and
Don Fitzgerald: mentors and all that would come just naturally, and
Don Fitzgerald: it would be as good an experience for her as
Don Fitzgerald: it would be for us as a church. So I think
Don Fitzgerald: but no, we're not. But there's no preconceived picture there. Yeah.
Andrew Owens: Those were the the top of my questions.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Okay. Well, thanks for meeting with us and what the next step. We'll get back with you in the next week or so and let you know what the next steps are, and
Steve Awtrey: And we'll give the other elders a chance to to watch this zoom, and then we'll we'll get back with you then, so to end the finish everything up. Could you lead us in a prayer, Andrew?
Andrew Owens: Absolutely. That's pray, Father God, we come before you tonight just thankful for your awesomeness. We thank you that
Andrew Owens: no matter where we are and what we're doing, we can always. We're always before you in your presence, that we at any time we can just come before you and asking for love and wisdom and courage.
Andrew Owens: Lord, I pray right now. Not just not for myself. But just
Andrew Owens: for Mcknight as they go through this process. I know they've been going through it for a while, and I pray that you would just continue to to give strength and wisdom to these elders, as they
Andrew Owens: try to do what's best for your church, and to lead by your example and by their own example, step forward to show the show the Church what it means to follow you.
Andrew Owens: and that you would help them to continue in that process. And, Lord, I pray that you be with all of our families that you would bless them.
Andrew Owens: and that you would just help us to know what's right, and to follow your will, even when that sometimes hurts. And so, Lord, we thank you for all you do for us. We pray you, be with those that are hurting today.
Andrew Owens: and that we would be a light to the world around us. Listen, Jesus, name, we pray. Amen.
Bret Blackford: Hey! Man!
Steve Awtrey: Minutes.
Don Fitzgerald: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Thanks, Andrew. Well.
Andrew Owens: Thank you.
Steve Awtrey: Have a good week. Alright!
Andrew Owens: You all too, bye.
Steve Awtrey: Alright. Goodbye.
Steve Awtrey: Okay.
Don Fitzgerald: Hey, Brett, can you send me the link again to the resumes and
Bret Blackford: Yeah.
Don Fitzgerald: Concerns.
Bret Blackford: I certainly can
Don Fitzgerald: I have more trouble keeping up with that
Steve Awtrey: I know I always have to go back to some email, have to look for it for a while and finally found one. Is, is there a way? We can go directly to it? Brett
Bret Blackford: Well, you should be able to.
Bret Blackford: From that link you can set it up as a
Don Fitzgerald: Favorite or something
Bret Blackford: Yeah, keep it as a favorite, or whatever you want.
Steve Awtrey: Okay.
Steve Awtrey: yeah, send me that link, too, and I'll try to
Bret Blackford: We'll do that
Steve Awtrey: Steve, you still with us
Stephen Walker: Yeah, yeah. I'm still with you.
Steve Awtrey: Oh, man, sorry you're sick.
Steve Awtrey: So you guys have any input on impressions on as how to move forward
Don Fitzgerald: I mean I I to be honest, I've gotta still listen to a sermon. I haven't listened to a sermon
Don Fitzgerald: I would say, just based on the interview. My only concern would just be his inexperience. You know
Steve Awtrey: Right.
Don Fitzgerald: And not just in preaching, but just the whole sort of leading a church, you know, which
Don Fitzgerald: we certainly had, that with some of the other candidates, too, but
Steve Awtrey: Yes.
Don Fitzgerald: And then his resume. I did.
Don Fitzgerald: I mean, besides his, I guess, degree in youth ministry. Has he had any further training
Steve Awtrey: No, no, just. He's been at Vaughn Hill for 14 years right out of college.
Don Fitzgerald: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: That's his only training.
Don Fitzgerald: It's just, you know, we got that doggone stinking Kreider to
Steve Awtrey: I know, boy, that's
Don Fitzgerald: Place.
Steve Awtrey: Follow. Yeah, it really is. So somebody's gonna have to do it. Unfortunately. So
Don Fitzgerald: Yeah, you're right?
Bret Blackford: Well, I like you know. Think about that. There's
Bret Blackford: things that somebody can learn right? I mean, you know, you can
Bret Blackford: polish up your presentation skills. But I think you know you have to see a heart and a passion for ministry and and and service, and and you know that's what I'm looking for. You know a lot of the stuff, you know. You think after you know, 2 or 3 years.
Bret Blackford: you know, people can start learning things, but you know, do they seem to be genuine in their faith and and mature, and and really have a passion for it?
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: And I. And from what I know of him, and I know him pretty well.
Steve Awtrey: I see that in him.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, yeah.
Don Fitzgerald: I mean, he seems to be very sincere. Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah good guy he's he's gone through a lot of thick and thin, a lot of thin and
Steve Awtrey: at Vaughn Hill, and he he has stuck it out there, and
Steve Awtrey: has taken on a lot of roles more of an associate minister
Steve Awtrey: with an emphasis in youth. Next, Gen. Stuff
Don Fitzgerald: All right.
Steve Awtrey: Alright. Well, I guess we will. Let everybody watch it, and we'll then when's our next elders meeting
Don Fitzgerald: It's that 1st Monday in March.
Steve Awtrey: In April. Okay, that's April the 7, th isn't it?
Don Fitzgerald: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, do we wait that long
Bret Blackford: 7, th
Steve Awtrey: Wait till then to make a decision. I guess. Yeah, probably
Don Fitzgerald: Well, just how quickly we get these other guys
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Don Fitzgerald: To listen to this, and then, like I said, I've got a
Don Fitzgerald: listen to a couple of these sermons, and
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Bret Blackford: So I sent out the link. And if Steve Walker, you know sometime tonight, if you can send me the the zoom link, I can post that and get that out later tonight. Early tomorrow.
Stephen Walker: Okay.
Don Fitzgerald: Oh, and Steve, I mentioned to Walker.
Don Fitzgerald: But Lilly and Cease pulled me aside Sunday morning, and she's really been
Don Fitzgerald: stay in contact with Sandra Lumpkins and
Don Fitzgerald: her husband's in the hospital in Icu at Orange, Jewish, and not doing well.
Don Fitzgerald: So I just reached out to her, you know, by text, and
Don Fitzgerald: he responded and said, You know, she's got a great network around her and all that, but appreciated the
Don Fitzgerald: the contact. But evidently, and just out of the blue. He just sort of.
Don Fitzgerald: as I understand it, sort of collapsed, and so
Bret Blackford: Alright guys. Well, Steve, send that to me, and I'll send the link out. And you guys try the link that I sent you. Just make sure that you can access it, and you know, if not, tweak it
Don Fitzgerald: Alrighty!
Stephen Walker: Very good.
Bret Blackford: Alright guys.
Stephen Walker: Hey? By the way, guys, I want to just confirm the letter that was drafted by Chat Gt and Brett, is that something that we want to include a link in the Bulletin this week.
Stephen Walker: because I didn't give a lot of information on yesterday about how we arrived at a decision. How much information do we want to share with the congregation
Stephen Walker: about the black Moors?
Bret Blackford: I don't know what we did with the others. I don't know that we had anything in the Bulletin.
Bret Blackford: I, the only person I've had reach out to me, was Vicki Roberts, who said, you know she was disappointed, and so I haven't heard a lot of people having questions, and so I guess my 1st thought would be. I don't know that we did that with the others had a a big write up in the the Bulletin
Stephen Walker: We gave more of a a verbal explanation, a pretty detailed verbal explanation of what came to
Stephen Walker: the last 2 with Mondays and and Gunther's, and didn't really do much at all where I was anticipating that we were going to. We had drafted that letter to share with the congregation, and so my anticipation was that we was going to provide that letter to the congregation, so
Don Fitzgerald: Don't remember the letter that much. I'd have to look at it again, but
Don Fitzgerald: I guess I cringe a little bit about putting it in an official communication which
Don Fitzgerald: very easily, I'm sure we get back to John Blackmore. I mean I which may be okay. I just
Don Fitzgerald: I just wondering if we need to saved much more than you know. After evaluating.
Don Fitzgerald: you know the weekend, and hearing from members and
Don Fitzgerald: discussing it amongst ourselves that we just decided that
Don Fitzgerald: that he wasn't. You know the match that we needed.
Don Fitzgerald: or something, you know something pretty simple along those lines as opposed to
Don Fitzgerald: I don't remember what, Brett what that was in the AI letter, but
Bret Blackford: It was pretty much that it was just, you know, John