Christopher Jackson: Get down!
Steve Awtrey: Alright. So it's recording now, and everything we say will be recorded. So we gotta be careful. So okay, Chris, first, st in your career to this point.
Steve Awtrey: What are some things that you're most proud of.
Christopher Jackson: Things I'm most proud of. Yeah, well, I I
Christopher Jackson: and youth ministry, I think I've I've been able to a couple of churches. I've been out. I've been able to help create new vision statements, either.
Christopher Jackson: so once, for you know, an entire church vision.
Christopher Jackson: but twice, for you know, specific ministries in including youth ministry, and
Christopher Jackson: you know vision and as well as and
Christopher Jackson: values, you know that that kind of guide. How that vision is implemented. And I've been pretty proud of the of that work.
Christopher Jackson: also, just some of the rhythms we've helped create. There's I think, of at least 2 of the churches I've walked into that
Christopher Jackson: We're doing ministry. But it was just kind of
Christopher Jackson: you know, flying by the seat of our pants. Kind of ministry, you know. Doing whatever
Christopher Jackson: feels right, you know.
Christopher Jackson: Quarter to quarter, you know, teaching whatever feels right, you know, week to week, or month to month. And
Christopher Jackson: that's not necessarily always a bad thing. But
Christopher Jackson: And you know, we were able to create rhythms, kind of using those that vision and those those
Christopher Jackson: values to say, Okay, how are we going to create rhythms in the life of our community that is going to make sure that these values, you know, we keep coming back to them. I've been pretty proud of
Christopher Jackson: of that both again as a church. And also, you know, in specific ministries that I fled.
Christopher Jackson: I I was also thinking of one thing I'm really proud of today is you know. So today I was walking around at this intern fair, where youth ministers are looking for
Christopher Jackson: for interns and
Christopher Jackson: you know we had. I think it was a hundred 23 Harding students looking at these churches, you know, wanting to find an internship somewhere, or at least thinking about it. And
Christopher Jackson: it. It made me feel good to see a good number of them were former students of mine.
Christopher Jackson: Oh, awesome!
Christopher Jackson: So made me feel a little bit old to see that like they're wanting to do youth ministry now.
Christopher Jackson: But you know that I I just and you know, when they come up to me, some of them haven't seen me much or talked to me much in several years, but to come up and
Christopher Jackson: talk to me, and be excited to share with me about
Christopher Jackson: how God is using them in ministry, you know, makes me feel like
Christopher Jackson: the time I spent with them, even, you know, for some of them it was just a short time, but it was time well spent, and and so I know, even just today I was feeling
Christopher Jackson: proud about that and I'm also proud of the work I'm doing here at Harding. It's been especially with the school of theology. It's been a pretty
Christopher Jackson: crazy year. You know. Our. The office I work in is is a whole new department for Harding. So you know, I've gotten to be one of the trailblazers to help kind of figure out what does our office look like, and how do we work?
Christopher Jackson: and I enjoy doing that kind of thing, you know, again, kind of visioning and thinking about.
Christopher Jackson: you know, what do we want to accomplish? And how are we going to do it?
Christopher Jackson: problem solving and then, especially with Hst, the school of theology
Christopher Jackson: moving the campus, I got to be a part of the Hst Academic transition team.
Christopher Jackson: You know, and and
Christopher Jackson: helping again, kind of create community for for a new group of students, you know, moving to Circe has been
Christopher Jackson: That that's gone, really? Well, and
Christopher Jackson: you know, since I took over recruiting for the school. It's
Christopher Jackson: our incoming class has about tripled in size. So
Christopher Jackson: I I think a lot of that is due to the move, you know. That's not all all me but
Christopher Jackson: But I'm I'm proud to have been a part of a
Christopher Jackson: you know this this transition. It's it's been it's been a good experience.
Steve Awtrey: Good, that's great. It's exciting.
Stephen Walker: Good. Yeah, very good stuff.
Stephen Walker: Can you talk a little bit about your experience preaching and teaching? Chris.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, I
Christopher Jackson: never. I remember when I 1st was going into ministry, I really just was interested in kind of the relational things, and really was not interested in preaching and teaching. It was kind of something that I felt like.
Christopher Jackson: That's part of the job, you know, and so I better figure out how to do it and
Christopher Jackson: But over the years I don't know if part of it was maturity. Part of it was
Christopher Jackson: I I think part of it was to just learning a different type of teaching and preaching than what I grew up with.
Christopher Jackson: because I think a lot of it was in my youth. I just didn't want to be what I had seen growing up. I just was, and that's all I knew, you know. So I was like, well, if that's what preaching is, that's I'm not that, you know. And so but over time, as I kind of found my voice both as the
Christopher Jackson: teacher and a and a preacher.
Christopher Jackson: I grew to to really enjoy it. The 1st church I worked at.
Christopher Jackson: You know. I I wrote all of our curriculum. I I began
Christopher Jackson: you know I wrote a whole scope and sequence, you know, for our youth ministry over 7 years and
Christopher Jackson: I I found that I really enjoyed, you know, doing the research and putting that together, and not only teaching it myself, but also equipping others to teach that kind of material. I started a class where I kind of
Christopher Jackson: taught teachers, you know. So I would teach the material to the teachers who could then go and teach whether it was a youth group class or they were teaching, you know, a young adult class or an elderly class, or even a children's class. Kinda they would contextualize the material. But I was kind of a resident theologian, if you will kind of helping them get the material, and then
Christopher Jackson: and then, you know, if they needed help, a lot of them were able to to then take it and
Christopher Jackson: figure out, okay, how do I teach this material? You know, to my specific group? And then preaching, you know, was another one of those things that I kind of
Christopher Jackson: at 1st did out of necessity. The 1st church I worked at was a small church
Christopher Jackson: and 6 months into my time there. Our leadership led our
Christopher Jackson: our lead minister go and so suddenly, you know, 6 months into my 1st ministry job at 22, I guess I was. I was the only
Christopher Jackson: minister on staff, and so I was still a youth, minister and title, but I mean I was doing everything and
Christopher Jackson: doing a lot of the preaching and
Christopher Jackson: wondering when I was gonna run out of stuff to say, and and
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: I
Christopher Jackson: but I you know I I did it, and you know, prayed a lot about it, you know. Went to my mentors and
Christopher Jackson: I
Christopher Jackson: and I I just I just started I that that was kind of the season where I started to learn who I was, kind of as a minister and as a pastor, and stopped kind of trying to emulate
Christopher Jackson: other people. You know that I have read or or listened to and what I found is that people responded to it very well. I kind of had a different style than I think. It's much more.
Christopher Jackson: I'm a storyteller. I'm a conversationalist.
Christopher Jackson: you know, when other people get loud and big, I kind of get quiet and small and want people to to lean in, you know, when I get to that that moment, you know
Christopher Jackson: And you know, more contemplative. I think my my teaching and preaching typically is
Christopher Jackson: And I remember when we finally did hire a new minister at the church.
Christopher Jackson: There was a meeting. I wasn't at this meeting but there was kind of a
Christopher Jackson: family meeting. I guess if if I I think, is what we called it and
Christopher Jackson: because because this was also a period of time where there was a lot of tension between the elders at this church and the the members of the church. You know a lot of misunderstanding each other, and and that was hard as a 22 year old, 1st time minister, to try to stand between angry people and elders who felt misunderstood and try to hold everyone together but but at this meeting, you know, they were talking about they were announcing the new hire
Christopher Jackson: and
Christopher Jackson: new preacher, and several of especially some of the the older folks told the elders. Well, that's great, but we still want to hear Chris preach, and so so they worked it out where I think it was like every 5 weeks, you know. Once a month or so I I
Christopher Jackson: continued to to preach on a regular basis, and
Christopher Jackson: especially early on in my ministry that felt like one of the biggest compliments I ever I ever got.
Christopher Jackson: And then, as as we've gone on I think you know, I get to speak a lot at the in this role that I'm in now. I travel around, and
Christopher Jackson: whether I'm speaking here at Harding, or, you know, traveling to churches like Mcknight or or
Christopher Jackson: visiting, you know, conferences, things like that. I get to teach and preach and and
Christopher Jackson: you know I'm i i think my voice is still continuing to evolve and strengthen
Christopher Jackson: But I I tend to approach it, you know, with vulnerability. And I I try, you know, to approach it with humility.
Christopher Jackson: And
Christopher Jackson: I preach about a a lot of times. I preach about the things that I struggle with and wonder about. Because I figure if I'm struggling with these things and wondering about these things, and I know at least one person in the room is gonna hear something they need to hear that day, and maybe some other people will, too.
Steve Awtrey: Awesome.
Christopher Jackson: And yeah, I I
Christopher Jackson: try to be well read and well researched, you know, when I I think that's probably the academic in me.
Christopher Jackson: But
Christopher Jackson: yeah, I don't know if that if that's kind of if that's the direction you were wanting me to go with that question.
Steve Awtrey: Sure. Yeah.
Stephen Walker: Yes, sir, thank you.
Steve Awtrey: So.
Steve Awtrey: what I know you. In your cover letter you sent us. You had a paragraph on your philosophy of ministry, but just give you a chance just to verbalize what you feel like are the important elements of your philosophy of ministry.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, it's a good question. I
Christopher Jackson: think that the job of any
Christopher Jackson: minister pastor, you know, staff staffed church person, whatever whatever we're called and I think this history, whether we're in youth, ministry, or
Christopher Jackson: preaching. You know children's ministry, you you name it
Christopher Jackson: I think the job of that person is not really to do the work of the Church, but to help the Church do her work.
Christopher Jackson: And so I I really approach it from an equipping mindset. From a discipleship mindset, multiplying mindset
Christopher Jackson: And so sometimes I describe that, as you know, if if at any given time, I, as a minister, have
Christopher Jackson: 20 different things on my plate. You know that I'm trying to to balance them all I'm looking for. Who can I give one of these things away to, you know. Who can I delegate something to, and train and equip, and and make that person feel confident and competent to? To take this from me and and let it be their thing
Christopher Jackson: And then. Now I've got room on my plate to add something else. And so before I just pick up something off the ground, I look around and I say.
Christopher Jackson: you know, oh, man.
Christopher Jackson: I have learned recently that Steve is really good at this. And so I'm gonna create this ministry, and I'm gonna carry it for a while. But
Christopher Jackson: Steve may not know this, but I'm picking this up with full attention of handy
Christopher Jackson: this off to him, you know, in 6 months. And if you do that long enough.
Christopher Jackson: you do that long enough, and after several years, you know, instead of having one guy who's still doing the same 20 things that he was doing 5 years ago, you've got 100 people doing 100 different things, and you've you've multiplied the output. And you know capacity of your your church's ministry by, you know, 100 fold and
Christopher Jackson: And so.
Christopher Jackson: you know, there's always that thing or 2 that I think are worth hanging on to, just because maybe it's the the thing that really brings you to life, and and makes all the other stuff worth it. You know that you have.
Stephen Walker: For some.
Christopher Jackson: Sometimes put up with. But
Christopher Jackson: but I really believe in giving things away. You know, it's like as a youth minister that meant
Christopher Jackson: even if sometimes I thought
Christopher Jackson: you know, I might be the best teacher in this room right now, you know I I needed to to get other people. 1st of all, my students needed to hear other voices other than my own and I need to be giving other people opportunities because they need to learn to be, you know, better teachers, and they're not going to do that if I do it all the time. You know, when I preach, I'm not really telling people what they should think about
Christopher Jackson: a particular passage, or at least I try not to. I I try to to show them how how to think instead of what to think. And so
Christopher Jackson: you know, I I think in it's in my philosophy that I I use the the
Christopher Jackson: metaphor of a gardener, you know, who's maintaining the greenhouse? Who I I can't make anything grow, but I can
Christopher Jackson: cut things where they need to be cut, and I can add, you know, fertilizer and water and sunlight, where? Where? You know I'm i i have the capacity to and
Christopher Jackson: you know, and prepare us for growth.
Christopher Jackson: You know, and and and my whole goal is just to help us become people who see the world, the way that Jesus sees the world and
Christopher Jackson: think about things the way Jesus seems to think about things, and and do the kinds of things that that Jesus does, and
Christopher Jackson: that's to me that that's kind of it, you know. And so
Christopher Jackson: I I think everything else. You know I hold pretty loosely. I I feel like if I'm doing that, I'm
Christopher Jackson: I'm a doing what I'm supposed to be doing.
Stephen Walker: Okay.
Stephen Walker: So I really appreciate hearing kind of some of the things we were proud of, and
Stephen Walker: and a couple of things you mentioned related to the job you doing now for Hardy, and it sounds like you're having some real success there, you know. I think you described someone as a trailblazer, and then, you know, creating something and putting something together, new and hopefully innovative. That will be sustainable and last a long time, which is very exciting to be a part of that, and sound like having some success with, you know, hearing something from your past students. And
Stephen Walker: so I think one of the things. When you and Steve spoke, you said, Hey, let me take a moment and pray about before I respond to you, which I respect that too. So
Stephen Walker: why are you leaving? Considering, leaving your current position.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, that's a good question. I'll say.
Christopher Jackson: You know my wife and I. Morgan, we're not
Christopher Jackson: I wouldn't say we have any real urgency about leaving. You know we're not just like looking, you know, to
Christopher Jackson: to to get out of out of Circe as as quick as we can.
Christopher Jackson: But
Christopher Jackson: you know, and we can talk about this more, too. But you know one of the main reasons. We came
Christopher Jackson: back to Circe and to Harding? And
Christopher Jackson: was we needed a place to kind of catch our breath for a little bit, and
Christopher Jackson: do do some healing and thinking and
Christopher Jackson: and and and I think a lot of what we set out to do here has been accomplished. I mean, I think there's always more. You know, we're we're continuing to grow
Christopher Jackson: you know. And so there's just a lot of things about.
Christopher Jackson: And and there's a lot of things about really focusing, even though, like what I'm doing with Hsc. Is still very much a ministry. There's a lot of things I miss about just being like really fully devoted to ministry, you know, having all of my time and effort
Christopher Jackson: in ministry, and it not kind of being a
Christopher Jackson: secondhand, you know, effect.
Christopher Jackson: and you know it's so. There's a few things that play there and then on the other side of that is just the fact that you know, Morgan and I are not necessarily opposed to settling down here in Circe. But we
Christopher Jackson: we're really hoping to
Christopher Jackson: to experience parenthood in the next year or 2. That's been something. I think Steve and I
Christopher Jackson: talked about that a little bit, maybe, in Jane, or I guess it still is January. But few weeks ago. It feels like that was a couple of months ago at this point.
Steve Awtrey: Oh, really, but we
Christopher Jackson: That's been a bit of a journey for us, you know. I won't get into all of that right now. But
Christopher Jackson: but we, you know, kind of back in December, we said. We really want to pour a lot of our
Christopher Jackson: resources, you know, and and attention. Toward that this next year. And one thing we know that that means is, you know, my current role. I I travel a lot and
Christopher Jackson: that's fine, you know, for now. But you know.
Christopher Jackson: when there's a little one at home, obviously that that becomes much less appealing and conducive to to that. And it's nice. I live about 5 min from my mom and dad and I know that they would do anything we needed them to do. But
Christopher Jackson: thank you.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: We also didn't move here so that they could raise our children for us, you know.
Christopher Jackson: And I sure don't make enough that Morgan, could, you know, stop working?
Christopher Jackson: and you know we might could figure out a way for me to be part time or not have to for a while. But
Christopher Jackson: But you know the idea of of shifting to whether that's something here at the University, and I'm I'm kind of checking out what that might look like, too. But or something like this, you know, back in a a
Christopher Jackson: church, you know congregational context. You know where?
Christopher Jackson: You know I I'm I have more of a stable rhythm.
Christopher Jackson: is appealing to us right now and and like I said right now we don't have the urgency. But at some point, hopefully, you know, we'll get to a point where I will know that, hey? In 6 months our lives are about to change, and and at that point it will become much more urgent, you know, and so
Christopher Jackson: we'd rather
Christopher Jackson: look at things now, while we don't have that sense of urgency, and can maybe make more prudent decisions than wait till like, we need to make a decision and and maybe make a decision faster than we should.
Stephen Walker: Okay, that's fair. Thank thank you.
Steve Awtrey: Is it your wife? A physical therapist.
Christopher Jackson: She is. Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Okay. Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: She's a pediatric physical therapist.
Steve Awtrey: Oh, okay, that's right. Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: and and one thing that I guess some of the elders will probably like to know it, kind of goes along with that.
Christopher Jackson: Yes.
Steve Awtrey: Share a little bit about
Steve Awtrey: your other positions you've had, and that you've left.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: So
Christopher Jackson: island hills. The 1st church I was at, or or at least as a full time. You know I did internships and things like that. But
Christopher Jackson: And it was a good 1st church experience.
Christopher Jackson: you know, I shared a little bit of of
Christopher Jackson: you know what it was like there as a young minister and a a lot of you know some of the best things about that was just I. You know I was their 1st full time youth minister
Christopher Jackson: and I had a lot of support from the eldership and a lot of ways to
Christopher Jackson: to just try a bunch of things and fail at a bunch of things and keep trying and
Christopher Jackson: and so it was a really good place to kind of cut my teeth, you know, in ministry, and and kind of discover my
Christopher Jackson: personality, you know, as a as a minister and and and
Christopher Jackson: you know, but it was also it was a challenging place, I I think, especially just my age and maturity, and the way I was equipped at the time. I think if I were to handle some of the if I were to
Christopher Jackson: face some of the same challenges now that I did back then.
Christopher Jackson: would be a very different experience. But at 2223
Christopher Jackson: It was. It was a a challenging place at times.
Christopher Jackson: you know, like, I said, kind of trying to hold together this church that felt like it was trying to pull itself apart. And
Steve Awtrey: Shane Hines, Shane Hines was the.
Christopher Jackson: That's right. Yeah. So Shane was the the minister. I forgot that. Y'all you all know him, and so and I don't know him well, because, you know, I only work.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, right.
Christopher Jackson: About 6 months, so and I still never. You know, I never really got a good explanation from, you know, elders or anything about what happened there. But
Christopher Jackson: you know, and it also, I think, created some
Christopher Jackson: timidity. Is that a word? And and me as a young minister, because I was kind of like.
Christopher Jackson: So you know better not
Christopher Jackson: make anyone upset, you know, because
Christopher Jackson: I guess that could happen to me, you know, and so but also, you know, one of the other challenges about being at that place was so. My wife was in school getting her Doctorate at University of Tennessee, Chattanooga, and so we lived in a little town called South Pittsburgh, and so, which was kind of in between.
Christopher Jackson: and so she would drive 20 min one way to school, and I had a 55 mile commute the other way to the church, and so
Christopher Jackson: we never really felt like we were as much a part of the community as we wanted to be. We also were struggling, some with, you know, the next youngest
Christopher Jackson: people at that church were my students.
Christopher Jackson: And the next oldest people were parents of some of our students. So this huge gap and
Christopher Jackson: and part of our experience, too, was, it felt like adults at that church didn't know how to talk to us, because they didn't know. Like if we were adults, or if we were kids and.
Steve Awtrey: Hmm.
Christopher Jackson: And so we we struggled to kind of find our people there and
Christopher Jackson: And and so when Morgan was graduating, it was kind of a natural time of transition, anyway, because we were either gonna move to that town or we were gonna move on, and I'd gotten to a place where.
Christopher Jackson: You know, during my time at Harding as an undergraduate student.
Christopher Jackson: I'd really started to take apart some of the fundamentalism that I grew up with, and
Christopher Jackson: was trying to figure out
Christopher Jackson: what to do with a lot of my faith that I still hadn't. I'd taken things apart, but hadn't found a good way to put them back together again, and I'd been struggling with that some as as a minister, you know.
Christopher Jackson: Morgan, I'll tell you. I taught about a lot of things while I was there that I didn't really know a lot about. But it was a good excuse to use our church budget to buy myself books on these these things that I was trying to. I was wrestling with, and so when she graduated I had the opportunity to go and do my Mdiv. Full time. And so it was just kind of a natural.
Christopher Jackson: you know. We we kind of stayed one more summer, and then we moved to Memphis. I I did school in Asheville, but
Christopher Jackson: My time at Sycamore View. They weren't hiring. I just. I knew what kind of church they were, and so I called them and said, Hey, you don't know me.
Christopher Jackson: but I know you. And there were a few key things about what they were doing that I was really interested in and curious about to learn. And so I just said, I'm doing my master's. And I'm gonna be doing that full time. I would love to work part time at your church and just learn from you. And if you could pay me, that would be great, too.
Steve Awtrey: And.
Christopher Jackson: And but basically I offered to work for free there, because I I just was so curious to learn some of the.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: The
Christopher Jackson: initiatives that they had developed, and you know they were the only church I'd ever heard of that had a waiting list of volunteers for several of their ministries, and I was like, how did you? I wanted to know how you built that kind of culture at a church? So we spent.
Christopher Jackson: I guess, close to 2 years there.
Christopher Jackson: About maybe a year and a half
Christopher Jackson: and we loved it. That was like some of the best time of our lives.
Christopher Jackson: We loved Memphis. We loved that church. I if we could have, I think, found a way to stay there more permanently, we would have. But but again that was
Christopher Jackson: you know. Really, our agreement was just, for while I was in school, and so, as I I did my Mdiv. In 2 years. I I really kind of cranked it out. And
Christopher Jackson: and so when that was coming to an end.
Christopher Jackson: you know, we we began looking again, and
Christopher Jackson: my co work, or my my my my peer and my cohort in my Mdiv. Was a minister at this church in Kansas City, and she and I got along really well, and you know, she had said, hey, we're hiring, you know. Why don't you come, you know. Think about working with with us and I remember when we interviewed with them.
Christopher Jackson: there was a lot of things that we thought were really weird about the way they chose to do the interview like, for example.
Christopher Jackson: they didn't want us to attend a worship service,
Christopher Jackson: you know, cause they didn't want anyone to like see us or us to like meet anyone
Christopher Jackson: which I like. I kind of understood. But I thought, Well, I don't wanna
Christopher Jackson: say, I'll work at a church that I've never like been to a
Christopher Jackson: service, and this was kind of before. You know, we were all doing live streams and stuff, you know. And so.
Christopher Jackson: yeah, there were some things like that. And also I knew that I would be the the seniors that were graduating that following spring. I was going to be their 5th youth minister.
Christopher Jackson: You know. And what is that? 6 or 7 years? And so I knew that. But I think. Looking back, I think that I was feeling pretty good about things, you know, because, even though my 1st Church Highland Hills had there had been some tension there, like it was a good experience. And then I was feeling really good. Feel like I felt like I had a lot of momentum coming out of my Mdiv. I had
Christopher Jackson: put together a lot of things that felt like they had been disassembled for a long time, and my time at Sycamore view was just so good. And and keep in mind, too. I had also been a little bit insulated from something, so they kind of protected me and and so
Christopher Jackson: I think
Christopher Jackson: I'm I probably was a little overconfident in my ability to say, Okay, I know that they've gone
Christopher Jackson: through youth, minister after youth minister the last few years, you know about one a year
Steve Awtrey: Hmm.
Christopher Jackson: But I think I could be the one to.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: Build something from this rubble,
Christopher Jackson: And then it probably didn't help that. We moved there in January of 2020.
Stephen Walker: Hmm.
Christopher Jackson: So about, you know, 2 months later we're still kind of you know. I'm still organizing my bookshelf and taking things out of boxes, and the world turns upside down, and so.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: It ended up just being a big mismatch there and
Christopher Jackson: and it really all had to do with philosophy of ministry.
Christopher Jackson: you know, they just really didn't believe in
Christopher Jackson: you know. Kind of this equipping model and volunteer centric, you know, way of doing ministry.
Christopher Jackson: and so
Christopher Jackson: you know, we went back and forth with leadership, and my my Co. Minister, who who's some of you probably know Lizzie? Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: she ended up.
Steve Awtrey: From the Lafayette Church. Steve. She grew up. There was part of youth groups in Saint Louis.
Christopher Jackson: And so Mike Brown would also be a good person to talk to, because he he kind of was keeping up with everything going on, you know, at this church.
Christopher Jackson: you know. So he understands kind of he. He was someone I talked to a lot during this time, just kind of getting advice and but
Christopher Jackson: cause he had been keeping up with Lizzie for several years, so he understood the context there really well.
Christopher Jackson: But she resigned in November of 2020, and I maybe should have, but
Christopher Jackson: I just couldn't. Bring myself to be the now 7th youth minister to quit, you know, on these kids, and so
Christopher Jackson: I stay. Well, I offered to quit in January, and then
Christopher Jackson: was told, no, we don't want you to quit, and then
Christopher Jackson: In April of 21 I was. I was let go from my position and and
Christopher Jackson: you know, and there were some things just the way that was handled from leadership left a pretty sour taste in mind, and
Christopher Jackson: Morgan's mouth and just left us pretty hurt from the whole experience, and we were also just tired, I mean ministering through Covid, as I'm sure you all know, was just hard and it had been hard personally. We I lost my 1st grandparent, you know, during that time, and.
Stephen Walker: Hmm.
Christopher Jackson: My best friend, who's my best man in our wedding, passed away during that time.
Christopher Jackson: and my dad was going into surgery, and so we just had a lot of things kind of all crashing on us at once, and
Christopher Jackson: and we.
Christopher Jackson: So we were already just dealing with a lot kind of mentally and emotionally. And and then this happened too, and and so I I interviewed with a few churches during that time, but we eventually just kind of said, I think.
Christopher Jackson: It would be
Christopher Jackson: it might be wise to step away, you know, for a little while, and give ourselves some time and space, and and I had some other. You know people that I
Christopher Jackson: respect. You know, advising us the same and
Christopher Jackson: you know. And I think this also kind of came at a point where we were. We were also asking a lot of questions about
Christopher Jackson: probably like a lot of people during the pandemic, you know, like, what?
Christopher Jackson: What is the church really supposed to look like, and what is our role in it supposed to be? And
Christopher Jackson: that's also when I was doing my training as a spiritual director. And so that was kind of opening up my eyes to some new avenues of ministry and things to think about, and
Christopher Jackson: and I'll always love youth, ministry. I think I I think, Steve Autry, you probably feel this way, too, but I I think I'll always be a youth minister at heart.
Christopher Jackson: but but I also was just kind of coming to realize that I, the kind of minister I am, and the kind of youth minister I am is probably just not what a lot of churches were looking for, and so.
Christopher Jackson: you know that we were just asking a lot of questions about all of this. And so.
Christopher Jackson: you know, coming back here just felt like a good place to
Christopher Jackson: to sit, and all of that, and you know, to let those
Christopher Jackson: marinate if you will, and you know not. Not try to just push through, you know all of that. And so
Christopher Jackson: and and it has been. It's been a good, you know, time of discerning and wondering and
Christopher Jackson: you know, and and in a lot of ways we're still in that process. And that's that's part of why I really enjoy conversations like this, because even if this ends up not being, you know, right for for us,
Christopher Jackson: you know, hopefully, it helps you guys figure out you know what you're looking for, and and I know it'll help me, you know.
Christopher Jackson: you know. Learn about
Christopher Jackson: how my journey is going, and and you know what I may or may not be looking for myself, or or what God's leading me to.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, I'm gonna my next question, Steve. I'm gonna change it up because I think he's addressed some of that. But.
Stephen Walker: Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: Sorry if I
Steve Awtrey: Oh, no, you're you were great!
Christopher Jackson: Meander.
Steve Awtrey: No, and that's fine. The idea of spiritual director is kind of foreign to a lot of people. It was foreign to me up until about 2 years ago, and I'm really fascinated with it. So just for the sake of of the elders that will be watching this describe
Steve Awtrey: spiritual director spiritual direction, and and what that means.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, so I I
Christopher Jackson: did. 2 years of spiritual direction training, formal training after my Mdiv and
Christopher Jackson: it's an ancient Christian practice that as you said, Steve, is kind of a bit foreign to people, you know. I think, particularly in our movement or movements like ours, you know. Probably.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, I think evangelical kind of Low Church.
Christopher Jackson: you know. More more relaxed, I guess you might say expressions of our faith. But and
Christopher Jackson: and other traditions it's it has always been, and continues to be a a regularly, you know, practiced
Christopher Jackson: experience.
Christopher Jackson: But it's kind of had a growing resurgence in our movement. I think part of that is due to there seems to be a growing interest, I think, especially in millennials and Gen. Z. There's a growing interest in
Christopher Jackson: spirituality and spiritual formation. And
Christopher Jackson: you know, it's been very interesting, you know, growing up. We didn't talk a lot about Holy Spirit.
Christopher Jackson: I
Christopher Jackson: kind of joke. It's not really a joke, but I kind of joke that, you know. Growing up, I learned the Trinity was father, son, and Holy Scripture.
Christopher Jackson: but and so part of my experience of kind of being introduced to Holy Spirit. Was
Christopher Jackson: partially through spiritual direction. When I was doing my Mdiv. I was required to receive spiritual direction.
Christopher Jackson: Which was one of the most transformative parts of my journey
Christopher Jackson: and so spiritual direction. When I meet with my spiritual director, it could. I could see how to a lot of people it could look, and I think when I 1st started I felt like, Oh, this is kind of like counseling or therapy, because it kind of feels like that@firstst but it's got a very different goal.
Christopher Jackson: Whereas, like a counselor or a therapist, and I'm I'm not a counselor or therapist. I go to counselors and therapists. But
Christopher Jackson: My understanding of counseling and therapy is to really try to get the client to a point where they really don't need, you know, to come to therapy or counseling, or at least not for whatever issue it is that we're talking about to to work through it, to find a solution or to move, you know, on from from something, whereas virtual direction.
Christopher Jackson: We're not really looking to solve anything we're looking to. We're we're pulling people back to the question of Where is God moving and acting in whatever it is that's going on in your life? So it could be discerning decisions you're trying to make it could just be it could be hurt that you're experiencing.
Christopher Jackson: And
Christopher Jackson: you know, when when I was going kind of through our church hurt experience my spirit, you know. It was really important for me to see a therapist during that time. It was important to me to go to my physician, and you know, have medication that helped me get off.
Christopher Jackson: Get out of bed in the morning. It was also really important for me to have my spiritual director, who frankly helped me ask questions to God that I was not brave enough to ask if she wasn't there like helping me ask them things like, are you upset with God? Are you angry with God? Are you
Christopher Jackson: What do you? What? Where is God in this hurt? And you know those were questions that if I was just left to my own little prayer journal, I probably was going to steer clear of those, you know. Questions. But she brought me into those. And
Christopher Jackson: and
Christopher Jackson: It's not like pastoral counseling, you know. It's If
Christopher Jackson: one of my directees says something, you know that you know
Christopher Jackson: I don't think is good theology. That's not the time or place to say. Well, let me, you know, do a little teaching here. You know, it's just to hold that space of intimate connection with God, and and and and soul and so I call my practice spiritual companion or prayerful companion.
Christopher Jackson: which comes from a Eugene Peterson quote. But that's because I don't really like the term spiritual director, because it really sounds like, I'm doing a lot. I like prayerful companion, because that's what it really is is
Christopher Jackson: companioning someone as they think through their relationship with God in that in that moment. And so
Christopher Jackson: it's you know, I I get to really just bear witness to
Christopher Jackson: what is going on in that person's life, and maybe a firm where I see got on the move in their life or push.
Christopher Jackson: You know us into discomfort at times, and so, you know sometimes the most important thing I do is just help people hold silence in an undistracted space to encounter God. Because, as I'm sure you guys know that's not something that a lot of us are are very good at. And so
Christopher Jackson: I hope that answers your your question. If you I also, I do have a website for my spiritual direction. And and I go into there's like an FAQ section on there, and I go into a little bit more about how I see the difference between the practice of spiritual direction and
Christopher Jackson: counseling and therapy and
Christopher Jackson: you know I'd be happy for you guys to take a look at that as well.
Stephen Walker: That's our favorite.
Steve Awtrey: Christopher jackson.org. That's the.
Christopher Jackson: Well, that's that's kind of my online resume. And I feel I every time I
Christopher Jackson: give that one out I feel very
Christopher Jackson: I feel strange about that. But that's kind of the world we live in now.
Christopher Jackson: But now, my
Christopher Jackson: my spiritual direction website, I think there's a link to it from that one. But it's just prayerfulcompanion.com.
Christopher Jackson: Okay.
Stephen Walker: That's kind of my.
Christopher Jackson: My little private practice.
Stephen Walker: I can envision a lot of applications for having a spiritual director in your life, and as you're kind of going through that, I can see where different points in your journey where it'd be nice to have someone to help direct you to some of those things. And so.
Christopher Jackson: When I 1st encountered it. I was like, Where has this been? You know.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, this would have been great.
Christopher Jackson: you know, years ago, when I was starting to, you know.
Christopher Jackson: think through fundamentalism for the 1st time, or or asking questions about
Christopher Jackson: what is, is God different than I thought? God, you know, like I I was. Honestly, I was kind of frustrated. You know that
Christopher Jackson: No one had told me about this
Christopher Jackson: practice, that Christians, some Christians have been doing, for you know.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: Hundreds, thousands of you know, ever since Saint Ignatius kind of came up with the.
Steve Awtrey: The idea? Yeah, yeah.
Stephen Walker: So you you practice leadership skills right now in a lot of areas. And so obviously has been just in the name lead minister. You're gonna be a leader in a lot of ways, probably the most visible person in the congregation. And folks will gravitate toward to to you. And you know, just kind of just part of the job. And so how would you illustrate or describe your leadership style and your people skills.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, I am.
Christopher Jackson: I.
Christopher Jackson: I'm I'm taking a
Christopher Jackson: class right now on leadership style. I'm I'm a i'm enrolled in a Master of Arts of organizational leadership
Stephen Walker: program, right? Now.
Christopher Jackson: And and so that's kind of helped me think through some of this, too.
Christopher Jackson: you know, I definitely see that I'm I'm much more of a relationship. Oriented leader. You know more so than than you know. For example, a a task oriented leader.
Christopher Jackson: I this this week even I discovered, you know that. you know,
Christopher Jackson: coaching style is really kind of my leadership style, high support, high direction is kind of typically
Christopher Jackson: my, my approach.
Christopher Jackson: you know I I was asked in my class this week if if I would ever.
Christopher Jackson: you know, consider a high direction, low support. And I said, I think only in times of crisis, when there's just not time to to be supportive, you know, times like there's a missing student. And we just we need to find them right now, you know. And so, you know, just take charge and get things done. But that's just not really my my style. I would rather move slowly and organically.
Christopher Jackson: You know, fostering relationships than you know. Brute force anything to happen?
Christopher Jackson: I want to take people with me, you know where I'm going
Christopher Jackson: and so I, when I think about leadership, I often think of that word companion. You know, that's a really important word to me. And so and I. And I think that's the way Jesus led, you know, not always from out front, you know.
Christopher Jackson: but but kind of within and among. I
Christopher Jackson: and I I think that's reflected kind of we were talking earlier about my teaching style, you know. I don't. I rarely really feel like I'm talking at people, you know, but kind of
Christopher Jackson: talking with people, you know.
Christopher Jackson: I think I should. Also, this might be a good place to say to, you know.
Christopher Jackson: I was resistant for a while. I had some some people, I trust.
Christopher Jackson: Expressed to me
Christopher Jackson: especially over the last few years, as I was kind of asking some of these questions and processing change. And you know just all the all the different
Christopher Jackson: things we've been discerning these last few years.
Christopher Jackson: I've had some some people I respect and trust.
Christopher Jackson: Excuse me, expressed to me that they saw me moving towards, you know. A more of a
Christopher Jackson: position like this, and I I
Christopher Jackson: I was I I had some push back to that at first, st and some some real hesitancy about it, partially, just because I can see what
Christopher Jackson: you know like, like you were saying, you know.
Christopher Jackson: being kind of the face of of something
Christopher Jackson: being, you know, the the quote unquote, the guy, you know. I can see what.
Christopher Jackson: and I have seen what that can do to people. And I I felt hesitancy to
Christopher Jackson: to let that be done to me.
Christopher Jackson: How that can change people and and
Christopher Jackson: I I think you guys know what I'm talking about there and and I also
Christopher Jackson: I
Christopher Jackson: I'm trying to think how to how to
Christopher Jackson: say what what I have in my head right now.
Christopher Jackson: I think again
Christopher Jackson: sort of like what we were talking about with with youth ministry. I I think that the kind of leader I am
Christopher Jackson: is not always the kind of leader people immediately think of and and want
Christopher Jackson: you know, I I'm I'm not the big, flashy, you know, loud and proud.
Christopher Jackson: You know, kind of galvanizer. I'm a
Christopher Jackson: I I think my approach is a little more gentle and slow and purposeful, I guess.
Christopher Jackson: and but I but I have thought you know
Christopher Jackson: that if if I were to find the kind of community that that's the sort of leader they were looking for.
Christopher Jackson: then I I think it could. It could be a really beautiful thing. I I
Christopher Jackson: I don't use sports analogies much, but I I think when I think about my leadership style, I often think of myself as not so much the
Christopher Jackson: the coach like up in the the box, you know. Or even the coach on the sideline, but more like the quarterback who's on the field
Christopher Jackson: calling a play, you know, and gathering everyone in a huddle and saying, Well, that didn't work so let's try. Let's try this, and
Christopher Jackson: you know, but also not the kind of
Christopher Jackson: you know, not the Tim Tebow who says everybody get out of my way, and I'll make this happen, you know. But but really the the
Christopher Jackson: we need to to do this together, and sometimes even moving out of the way myself, you know, to to try to see
Christopher Jackson: someone else be able to make it happen.
Christopher Jackson: I don't know if that answers your.
Stephen Walker: No, it does. Thank you, Chris.
Steve Awtrey: What would you say? You know you you've looked at our
Steve Awtrey: our I can't think the word of it for our
Steve Awtrey: job description. That's the word I'm looking for you. You've looked at that and and seeing that is, what do you see? Some of your strengths that would fit that that job. Description.
Christopher Jackson: F.
Christopher Jackson: Let me. Just I'm gonna pull it up real quick again. If that's okay.
Steve Awtrey: Sure and.
Christopher Jackson: Cause it has been a few days. I've I've slept a couple of times since I've looked at it.
Christopher Jackson: yeah. Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, I think, looking at. I'm I'm just kind of working through it. You know the
Christopher Jackson: I will say, you know the job description did feel a little
Christopher Jackson: a little bit vague in some places, you know, which which in some ways I appreciate, because sometimes I've seen some job descriptions that are like.
Christopher Jackson: And he, you know.
Christopher Jackson: you know. Paragraph 11 sub sub point. You know, you're like, this is a lot, you know. So
Steve Awtrey: I think ours started out like that, and we had to bring it down. We wanted to bring it down to one page.
Christopher Jackson: And so I I appreciate that. But I but I also can see how like there could be some room for, you know interpretation and conversation. Which may be maybe per purposeful on on your part.
Christopher Jackson: but
Christopher Jackson: You know, I liked that. You guys used words, you know, like in the proclaim the Word of God. One thing I've just learned is, I've looked at different
Christopher Jackson: documents like this is, you can tell a lot about a church just by the the kinds of words that they use. Sometimes more than the sentences that they use. And so,
Christopher Jackson: you know, discipline of personal growth and prayer.
Christopher Jackson: you know, spiritual disciplines is
Christopher Jackson: something, as you could probably imagine by my work as a spiritual director is something I feel very
Christopher Jackson: strongly about both for myself and for the life of the church
Christopher Jackson: applicable to daily life. I I think you know that's something that I can I?
Christopher Jackson: I had a
Christopher Jackson: person I used to work with that would always in their sermons with the or or their classes with us. So what you know and I I don't always do that. But I but I always think about that, you know, when I when I'm teaching, you know, like, are we just doing this to
Christopher Jackson: get through because we're supposed to have a sermon? Or is there something to this?
Christopher Jackson: you know, I I like that. Y'all talked about spiritual formation. You know they're in point d
Christopher Jackson: I that I'm frustrated that a lot of churches
Christopher Jackson: value evangelism, but not necessarily like the spiritual formation of the people who are already, you know, we want to grow wide, but not necessarily grow deep. And I think we grow wide by growing deep.
Christopher Jackson: And so I think, as we focus on who's here, and how do we grow them spiritually?
Christopher Jackson: I think that will grow us, you know numerically, if if you know if that's what God chooses to do. And so that's always been my focus. And I appreciate that
Christopher Jackson: You know also the the teaching classes as needed. I liked that language, too, because, you know, like I said,
Christopher Jackson: I, you know, like if you were to hire me as the a primary preacher.
Christopher Jackson: I you know. I know that there are some churches where they pretty much hear the same person.
Christopher Jackson: you know, 52 Sundays a year, 51 Sundays a year, and I I really believe that while it's good to have a a consistent voice. You know that that we learn to trust and and
Christopher Jackson: kind of know something to expect and and hear from them regularly.
Christopher Jackson: I think it's also really important to hear from different voices both within the church and without the church,
Christopher Jackson: voices who bring different perspectives and different just just a literally a different voice, you know, to
Christopher Jackson: you know some of these same ideas.
Christopher Jackson: I felt.
Steve Awtrey: Looking.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. And if you look at B on that, we we don't expect 52 year, 52 sermons a year, but about 40 Ish, you know, so that you can have a break, and also to get some other people in there. That's that's incorporated in there, and that's thoughtfully put in there.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, that's something I I I value a lot.
Christopher Jackson: yeah, not just because I feel like I need a break from time to time, but because I think it's really
Christopher Jackson: important for the church.
Christopher Jackson: no. We already talked about how I important. I think mission vision and values are I kind of think we get lost without those. And which proverb, is it? You know that the the
Christopher Jackson: the man without a vision is is lost. I think that's proverbs
Christopher Jackson: 19 or 21, I think.
Christopher Jackson: you know. That's when I was in youth ministry, every every single thing we did every events, whether it was just kind of something for fun, something we just did at the building, or like a big going to camp. I I would always bring a group of people together to evaluate what we did against our mission vision and values. And I would always say, if what we're doing. If this event, if this class, if this hangout does not meet any of our mission vision and values.
Christopher Jackson: then we either need to toss it, or we need to figure out how to
Christopher Jackson: adapt it, you know, to to fit our mission vision and values and it also helps us to. You know. What we would also sometimes discover is.
Christopher Jackson: you know, say, we have 4 core values. But we're spending 75% of our time on one of them. You know
Christopher Jackson: how to find balance within the life of the church.
Christopher Jackson: I also really liked, you know, in that same section, on providing leadership in
Christopher Jackson: I guess. Really, in that second section there. I I really value
Christopher Jackson: the life of the church in the community. And so that was something that like in in Tolohoma. I was really big about. You know, I started us getting together with a group that we just called ourselves better together, and it was a group of religious leaders from across the city and nonprofit leaders and city officials. Our mayor was usually there and
Christopher Jackson: fire chief and things like that. And and we were always talking about, okay, what are the needs of our city? And how can we come together? And you know I care about poverty in our city, and you care about the poverty. But but maybe, instead of me doing this little thing about it, and you doing this other little thing about it. You know. What if we together could do something much bigger about it?
Christopher Jackson: you know we may not see eye to eye on every single thing. But we all care about
Christopher Jackson: this, you know, and so let's let's attack it together.
Christopher Jackson: and I I kind of picked up on that a little bit, you know, seeing how to how to get the church outside of just our our 4 walls.
Christopher Jackson: And then the on the supervising side of things. Yeah, I think
Christopher Jackson: one thing, Morgan, I've talked about before, you know, is, you know, you know, we mentioned my love for
Christopher Jackson: youth ministry. I I think a lot of the best lead ministers are people who
Christopher Jackson: weren't always lead ministers.
Christopher Jackson: you know I would love to be, for you know, a youth minister, the Lead Minister. I always wanted to have you know, the the supportive person. My father-in-law was a youth minister for about 18 years, and has now been at the same church. He's now been the lead minister there for about 10 years, and
Christopher Jackson: I think he is so good at his job because he's able to understand
Christopher Jackson: the rest of his staff and their needs. And and he also really helps the eldership there understand?
Christopher Jackson: You know the rest of the staff and and their needs
Christopher Jackson: and and bridges a lot of the the gaps that I think are sometimes there. And I think that's 1 thing that would
Christopher Jackson: excite me. About that.
Christopher Jackson: you know. Communication, I think, is really important in the life of the church, and always something I I value a lot. You mentioned that
Christopher Jackson: and then pastoral care, I mean, I think.
Christopher Jackson: you know, hope hopefully, it's evident to to you guys, that's that's
Christopher Jackson: My, that's what draws me to ministry, you know, that's that's my
Christopher Jackson: That's why I do spiritual direction, you know. And I'm not really drawn to you know.
Christopher Jackson: power and positions and titles just don't really I think there was a time in my life where that's what I really sought, you know. And I I had this vision of the kind of church that when I get there, and I'm on the circuit at all the big events, you know.
Christopher Jackson: I'll I'll have been successful in ministry, and and I kind of got there for a little while, and I just thought.
Christopher Jackson: this is not everything I thought it was gonna be, you know, and and
Christopher Jackson: and I and I think that also was kind of the time kind of becoming disillusioned with that vision.
Christopher Jackson: Of success
Christopher Jackson: came also at that time, where I was really drawn into the more contemplative. You know life like with spiritual direction. And so my idea of what the Church could be, and what it meant to serve the church and ministry really changed during that time into
Christopher Jackson: You know much more of a you know. Servanthood. you know, from the
Christopher Jackson: from the the bottom up, you know, rather than top down type of leadership and
Christopher Jackson: and so I I
Christopher Jackson: I'm a big believer in being interruptible.
Christopher Jackson: You know I
Christopher Jackson: I loved it, you know, when someone would walk into even now, you know, I have students at Harding who
Christopher Jackson: get frustrated about something, you know. Maybe their teacher said, and they pop in my office. And
Christopher Jackson: it doesn't matter if I'm on the phone or writing an email you know, they'll just sit right there until I'm done, and.
Stephen Walker: And
Christopher Jackson: And then we, whatever it was I was about to do next. Now I'm talking to the student and
Christopher Jackson: and I like.
Steve Awtrey: I love that because I think Jesus was so interruptible.
Steve Awtrey: right? So with all of those, where would you say you're top? 2 strengths would be.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, I think I mean for sure spiritual pastoral care.
Christopher Jackson: And I think
Christopher Jackson: I guess I would say the
Christopher Jackson: the, the leadership, the mission and vision, you know, is really important to me, but I but I think you know my my strengths are more naturally, and the you know the proclaiming the word, I think is is
Christopher Jackson: and
Christopher Jackson: I think that's where I feel. I think I'm good at the mission and vision. But where I feel
Christopher Jackson: most alive and and like I'm working with God's Spirit is when I'm when I'm teaching and proclaiming the Word of God.
Steve Awtrey: Okay. Good. Good.
Stephen Walker: So, Chris, we we've been at this for a little while, and
Stephen Walker: so we've kind of refined our expectations over last few months, and
Stephen Walker: we are very open to having someone who's not a finished product, you know, but God is working with them, and they're letting God work with them. But we can see that there's a lot of potential in that person. So we're we're not using a sports analogy. We we wouldn't expect you to be a babe, Ruth day one right? So
Stephen Walker: So we are open to just working with people that God brings our way, and and especially the person that guy said, this is the person that we see in this position. And so as you look through the job description.
Stephen Walker: where would you identify some areas. It's gonna be some challenges for you or some weaknesses for you.
Christopher Jackson: And I mean definitely, I I think some of the
Christopher Jackson: you know the the pieces about supervising.
Christopher Jackson: you know. You know the the truth is, a lot of the positions I've been, and I haven't had a lot of direct reports, you know, to me, and so
Christopher Jackson: That would be. I think that's something I can do. But you know. And and that's part of why I'm doing this master's program. That I'm doing right now is because I saw myself that that's a hole that I I want to to fill, you know, and and grow in
Christopher Jackson: you know. But that's that's certainly something that would be
Christopher Jackson: a newer, you know, role for me to to undertake
Christopher Jackson: and I I think also, with some of the leadership pieces. I I think
Christopher Jackson: part of my
Christopher Jackson: part of what has has happened, you know, over the last few years, and and you know part of our healing journey. Even as it continues. I I notice in myself I still carry some imposter syndrome. You know I find myself in positions, you know I'm
Christopher Jackson: I'm asked to, you know I mentioned. I get opportunities to teach at places, you know, whether it's at a church or conference, or even at at Harding and
Christopher Jackson: you know, and where I I think
Christopher Jackson: a few years ago I probably would have responded in a way that was
Christopher Jackson: you know, felt very affirmed and like, Oh, wow! Like they, they see what you're exactly what you're saying, you know.
Christopher Jackson: potential, you know, and and promise. And so they've asked me to do this.
Christopher Jackson: Sometimes I still feel like oh, they don't they?
Christopher Jackson: You know they don't see the whole picture, you know. They, you know, and and I I battle with that kind of
Christopher Jackson: internal, you know.
Christopher Jackson: What's the word there
Christopher Jackson: Dialogue, you know. Just that internal dialogue of you know
Christopher Jackson: you're not as good as what you know
Christopher Jackson: they think you are, or or or or you think you are. And so and there's a part of me that
Christopher Jackson: doesn't wanna completely lose that, you know, cause
Christopher Jackson: I'd I'd I'd rather wrestle with that than wrestle with
Christopher Jackson: whatever the opposite of that is, you know, pride and and
Christopher Jackson: you know infatuation with myself. But
Christopher Jackson: But I I know at times that that can that makes me weak and makes me anxious. You know, if if it
Christopher Jackson: grabs a hold of me enough, you know, and and it kinda
Christopher Jackson: lately, you know, when I when I do these kinds of things. It it kind of comes and goes, you know, and I still haven't quite learned.
Christopher Jackson: You know the best ways to combat that, and or or even to sense, you know that it's coming. And so lately my approach has just been to just be very honest, you know, and and you know so like, when my Dean.
Christopher Jackson: you know, recently asked me to lead a class on spiritual formation, for you know, 1st year seminary students.
Christopher Jackson: and you know, talk about things like experiencing.
Christopher Jackson: Faith, dysphoria, you know, as they kind of wrestle with maybe ideas they haven't wrestled with before in Seminary.
Christopher Jackson: I I
Christopher Jackson: I remember I was about to get up and talk, and I just leaned over and said, I
Christopher Jackson: wants you to know that I'm
Christopher Jackson: wrestling with my imposter syndrome right now, and and he could tell, you know, like I did it, and my hands were kind of shaking the whole time, you know, and and but afterwards, you know, he addressed it and and helped me. Feel better. You know he he was maybe more affirming than he would have been, you know, if I hadn't said anything but it
Christopher Jackson: you know, that's I could see in a position like this.
Christopher Jackson: where there's not always kind of the next person up to defer to, you know. Maybe like I could have done in a youth ministry role, you know.
Christopher Jackson: I could see how that could be a challenge.
Steve Awtrey: Okay, last question,
Stephen Walker: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: And we're talking about the fit for the position. Do you see yourself as can you envision yourself
Steve Awtrey: as the lead minister at Mcknight? If it was offered to you.
Christopher Jackson: Well, I mean it's hard to I
Christopher Jackson: I mean having not been there, you know. I think that's that's a hard hard to to say, but
Christopher Jackson: I mean, based based on the conversation you know I've had with you and my conversation with
Christopher Jackson: with Dr. Reed. I think Dr. Reid knows me fairly well.
Christopher Jackson: I mean just just having him say that we should have this conversation.
Christopher Jackson: That alone told me a lot. And so
Christopher Jackson: I I
Steve Awtrey: I wouldn't say it's like a clear vision in my mind of of premature. It really.
Christopher Jackson: But I but i i i could. I could definitely see it.
Christopher Jackson: Growing into a clear picture. You know, it's not an obvious.
Christopher Jackson: there's been a few conversations I've been invited to have, you know, even just in recent months, that
Christopher Jackson: I kinda know right away that yeah, I don't.
Christopher Jackson: I don't see us. It's either the location is totally wrong, or you know there's something about it that just doesn't feel right, and I don't. I don't feel that, you know. With with this conversation.
Steve Awtrey: Okay, good. That's kind of what I was kind of asking there. So and it's those those types of feelings are important as you move forward, and I understand you don't know you've met with us, and you've not met with the church or anything. So
Steve Awtrey: okay, what do you have any questions for us?
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, I mean, tell me a little bit about I know. When we spoke in Dallas, you know you told me a little bit about kind of the makeup of the church.
Christopher Jackson: And I I think we talked more like demographically. But tell me more about like
Christopher Jackson: you know spiritually like, where where is your church? At? Where your your people at
Steve Awtrey: Hmm.
Christopher Jackson: How do you feel like your church looks in in a spiritual sense.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, go ahead, Steve. I'll let you start.
Stephen Walker: Okay, I I think. If I had to describe us, I would say we are, since our spirituality is that
Stephen Walker: more on a mature spectrum but open, very open to, because we understand that
Stephen Walker: the little we can grasp about God, there's so much more to him.
Stephen Walker: and so we're open to, to not being just bogged down by tradition.
Stephen Walker: and so being open to where, as God reveals Himself to us, we were open to examine it like the Bereans right examining it
Stephen Walker: to say is this where God has taken us? And so I think we're more like a Berean spirit in that standpoint is that we're open to hearing the truth, and we will examine it, based on God's word to see if it's true. So I think that's 1 way. The other thing, I think, is that
Stephen Walker: we we try to make sure that we're inclusive.
Stephen Walker: You know, and in terms of if someone has the giftedness to do something. We try to not let gender restrict that. You know. If someone has the giftedness to to give some great communion thoughts, or someone has giftedness to be the person to open or lead a prayer.
Stephen Walker: You know, even preach. So we we try not to let gender determine that we try to let God giftedness determine whether or not that person should be in that role.
Stephen Walker: I think the the other thing is that
Stephen Walker: we are a congregation, that
Stephen Walker: Very diverse in our ideals. Our backgrounds. We're kind of a hodgepodge of a lot of different people. There's definitely a dominant culture there. But it's very receptive to being massaged, you know. And so I think that that's part of who we are in terms of spiritual, because we realize that God's kingdom is God created us.
Stephen Walker: You know he's the diverse God in His creation. So we accept that as part of our journey as well. I I think.
Stephen Walker: we are open to hearing multiple voices as you described.
Stephen Walker: We're going through that process right now where we we're not requiring that one person be the person until we find a lead minister. We're listening to different voices in the congregation. So there's there's been multiple people that's gotten up and shared the word with us. And so we that's encouraging as well. I think the other thing that might describe us in terms of our journey is that
Stephen Walker: we? We are a little on the older side. But we we look at ourselves as the next Gen. Congregation.
Stephen Walker: So we want to make sure that we are continually empowering the next Gen. And you know, maturing the next generation. And so we we understand that's part of our mission of who we are is that we? We have a real. We have a next gen focus, even though we, when you look at us, it's, you know, you may not necessarily see that. But it's definitely have a next gen focus. I think those are probably some of the things that
Stephen Walker: describe us.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. And if you've gone to our website, you see our values, we about 2 years ago we put together. Maybe it's 3 years ago now are just some of our 7 values that we
Steve Awtrey: value and spirit led was at the top of the list. We really want to be spirit led. We don't want to be led by tradition. One thing, as we talked about a year ago with our elders is
Steve Awtrey: we don't want to keep doing things the same way we've been doing them
Steve Awtrey: because we don't want to get the same results. We want to do some things differently, to to be able to adapt to the generation X, you know, and just kind of like what you mentioned, which is one of the things you mentioned was that just with
Steve Awtrey: spiritual formation. And I mean, spiritual direction is very attractive to to the younger generation. And that's that's exciting. And we want to. We realize that we don't need to do things to keep the old older generation. We need to do things to draw in the younger generation, and that's those are priorities for us and we. We have probably everybody in the leadership, as as far as elders
Steve Awtrey: have dealt with the legalism and continue to. I know me myself personally grew up in a very legalistic church. It was kind of the culture back then, and just I just I still really struggle with all of that. I don't. I don't want to have a be a part of the legalism.
Steve Awtrey: We're a very friendly church, you know. People come in. Visitors come in, you know. They're kind of attacked by the members.
Stephen Walker: Urgent.
Steve Awtrey: Kind of welcoming, welcoming them, and that's good. And and we want to go further with that. We want to do more with that
Steve Awtrey: and but it's a i've been with this church for
Steve Awtrey: almost 40 years, and I love this church.
Steve Awtrey: and we have our ministers that have stayed have been around a long time.
Steve Awtrey: Which I think that that is says something.
Steve Awtrey: but it's a group of great people.
Christopher Jackson: You you guys asked me earlier, you know, about like my preaching and teaching and kind of what that
Christopher Jackson: feels like, what that approach is like. Tell me a little bit about
Christopher Jackson: what? And I understand that in a diverse
Christopher Jackson: congregation it might be kind of hard to, you know.
Christopher Jackson: PIN it down. But what do you think
Christopher Jackson: as a congregation your your church
Christopher Jackson: looks for when they're when they're you know, looking to be taught. And and
Christopher Jackson: you know. What? What are they looking for when they're listening to to preaching.
Stephen Walker: I think you described it. You you alluded to this. You were here quite a priesthood of all of believers. Right? So so we?
Stephen Walker: We are church that want to be equipped to do the work right. And I think you you kind of talk a little bit about that, I think equipping but not just from the pulpit
Stephen Walker: that can definitely help help set the stage. But what other kind of things can a lead minister do in terms of leading for equipping right. The pulpit is definitely a a place where it can be reinforced. But what happens outside of that
Stephen Walker: worship service that's going on in terms of that reinforces that preaching. So I think in the equipping. I think you I think people
Stephen Walker: have a heart to want to be
Stephen Walker: a light to the community. They want to be a voice in a community. They want to be someone that can be part of a transformed life, because someone knows God. But I think sometimes taking those initial steps, unless you feel ill equipped
Stephen Walker: to take those initial steps, I think that's what I would think would be an encouragement to people is that if they have, someone can help them walk them through that process that can walk alongside them, that can equip them to be a voice for God. Right be be someone who who can make a difference in their environment. We just have this conversation by the ladies today.
Stephen Walker: She's she works for one of the school districts, and my wife and I were talking about how
Stephen Walker: she is. She's been bringing this one lady with her.
Stephen Walker: You know her coworker to church. I think that's what we want. We want people as you are living your life.
Stephen Walker: You're sharing your story.
Stephen Walker: and people are getting connected to the story, and they will find their way to the gospel. They will find their way to Christ. And so we want. We want people to be able, and I think they want this as well to as we are living our lives. We're equipping others
Stephen Walker: to get to know the God that we know.
Steve Awtrey: That's good. Yeah. You know, I was
Steve Awtrey: talking to somebody. That was looking at our church and one of the Acu professors that came up last year to help do an elder elder sympo seminar. He he described us as he felt like we were a very healthy church which I was like. Oh, that's cool. I like that
Steve Awtrey: And as a as an elder we see some of the unhealthiness, but it's good to see other people, you know, with with that, you know, being a healthy church, so.
Christopher Jackson: That's good. But you Steve Walker, you you mentioned like in the community.
Christopher Jackson: 1 1 thing I'm always curious about is you know. So if
Christopher Jackson: if tomorrow you know bad news, Mcknight crossings is gonna have to close our doors, and you know, we're not gonna exist as a church anymore.
Christopher Jackson: what? What would the what would the community, miss if suddenly Mcknight crossing wasn't around anymore?
Steve Awtrey: Question, yeah.
Stephen Walker: So I think one of the things that comes to mind. 1st of all.
Stephen Walker: we have a very vibrant food pantry.
Stephen Walker: And it's probably the ministry where we probably spend most of our like talent and resources, you know, feeding the hungry. So we feed probably upwards of 50 families a month through the food pantry. And so that will be something that will be definitely would be missed. Now, it's just not the food that people get. So it's not unusual for
Stephen Walker: some of the patrons of the food pantry for their names to appear on our prayer list.
Stephen Walker: So the relationship that's being built there with those who are volunteering work in a food pantry, they they create this trust. And these relationships where people can be more transparent and say, Hey.
Stephen Walker: can you pray for me about this? And it's okay. If you put it in a public place where others can pray for as well. So I think that would be one of the things that I think community would would definitely miss. And I and I think you know
Stephen Walker: it.
Stephen Walker: Our facilities is is used by a a lot of different people in a community. And so I think there's we're fairly generous in how we allow that to be used, you know. And so
Stephen Walker: and so we, you know, we get a chance to interact with people through the facilities, and we use that as a as a tool for the gospel. Right? We use that as a tool for not just a place where Christians can come and fellowship. But how can we use that facility for to help the community also be a part of what we're doing? And so, and it may not be directly connected to our worship or who we are, but
Stephen Walker: they they're in the building, and we get a chance to interact with them right. And so I think the building how it's being used is another one.
Stephen Walker: And we have. We began to build some relationships with some of the schools in the community
Stephen Walker: to where couple of times a year we'll take, you know. We'll help with school supplies.
Stephen Walker: At the beginning of the year, and then in the wintertime we we help with things like coats and gloves and caps. And so we build those kind of relationships with a couple of school in and around our building. And I think those are a few of the things that
Stephen Walker: that will. And then all the then the police like to sit on our parking lot and take it to people as they were driving past our building. So they were.
Stephen Walker: hey.
Christopher Jackson: The community might not miss that part too much, so.
Steve Awtrey: And one thing that was interesting
Steve Awtrey: after Covid, you know, and everybody was recuperating after Covid. But we had people from the community coming to our church that we'd never met before, which was a great, a pleasant surprise to us, and many have have come and and have made
Steve Awtrey: have really connected with the church. Several families have done that.
Steve Awtrey: And so we're noticed by the community
Steve Awtrey: in a lot of different ways.
Christopher Jackson: It's good on
Christopher Jackson: what's something that's it's kind of a I guess. A 2 part question. But what's something that
Christopher Jackson: whoever whoever ends up taking this role?
Christopher Jackson: you are excited that they'll they'll get to
Christopher Jackson: be something that they're gonna be stepping into, that. You're excited for them you know, to be to be blessed by or or experience and then kind of the flip side of that question is, what is something that
Christopher Jackson: you know some kind of challenge that you know. Maybe if if this was your
Christopher Jackson: like your child that was looking at taking this role, you would want them to know that, hey, this, this is here, or coming down the pipe, you know. And and you're gonna have to deal with this
Steve Awtrey: I think the the negative part is, we are an older church, and and you and your wife comes in. We have some families that are younger families. But we really want to hire somebody that is younger that can help attract some other younger people coming in.
Steve Awtrey: And that's and we know if we don't, we die.
Steve Awtrey: you know, and and we want to do that. So that's 1 thing I would say. It's it's makes it. We're a missional, you know, a missional and a mission point
Steve Awtrey: where we are as a church, and we are not in the Bible belt.
Steve Awtrey: Thank you.
Stephen Walker: Come up, and you say Church of Christ, people.
Steve Awtrey: Don't know which is good. They don't have a lot of the baggage.
Christopher Jackson: The South they would have, too. So it's we are, was the same way.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. Yep. So that's 1, Steve.
Stephen Walker: So. I think, in terms of a strength. I've had a chance to trench this firsthand over the last.
Stephen Walker: probably 4 or 5 months is that I think the staff you you would a great staff, I mean, just servants ministry, I mean, talented in terms of
Stephen Walker: you know the people who are responsible for some of the financial decisions and and how they communicate well with one another in a very gentle way. I think. The youth Minister. He's new to it, but he has so much talent and ability, and he's grown so much very amenable.
Stephen Walker: And so the worship leader. She's the same way. So so I think walking into that that'd be very healthy, you know. That'd be a very healthy place to be a place where you can feel like you can thrive, and be a part of something. You have a team around you that all pull in the same direction. And then, you know,
Stephen Walker: also, you know, sometimes people bring new challenging ideals to you for you to kind of work through on the staff, which is which keep you from getting stale right? Something for you to work through, so you won't have a lot of yes, men and yes, women on the staff, you know, but they will provide you with their energize you in ways that help you to stay fresh, right connected.
Stephen Walker: and provide you with eyes and ears that you may not have the other things that are going on in the congregation. Yeah, I think.
Steve Awtrey: Okay.
Stephen Walker: That would be one of the things.
Steve Awtrey: And I having being one that spent 25 years working in this system is a little different, because we had merged 2 churches.
Steve Awtrey: But I was in ministry. Heaven! I had the relationship with the elders that was great, and I the the men that I work with now I love working with them, and when we're in meetings, if we disagree, we'll, we'll verbalize that. We disagree and we'll work through it, and when we leave we know each other's hearts, and we were. We're on one page. We were we're not divided. We'll we'll have
Steve Awtrey: different opinions, and I think that's healthy, but we will be kind of like a we're a united front, just like in parenting, you know. And and so we will be that and and that is so important as far as working with staff.
Steve Awtrey: We've we've got your back. That's 1 thing. We've told each of our staff members that we've got their back and we work together as a team
Steve Awtrey: which is critical. And you know, when I go to Ncym and doing the counseling, I'd hear all kinds of stories, and just some of the stories that you've shared. It's just awful, and
Steve Awtrey: I don't think you would have that story at at Mcknight. We would have your back. We respect the person coming in. We will respect their gifts, and we will work with them to help do everything we can, so they can be successful.
Stephen Walker: I think the Pareto rule kind of applies to is
Stephen Walker: the you probably have a small percentage of the people doing the majority of the work in terms of volunteer. And we, you know, in terms of the challenges. I think that would be one of the things that you would. You know, we collectively, we were working together on that right. We just asked the lead minister to take that role and figure out how to get more people engaged. Right? So I think that's 1 of the challenges. And there's a lot of reasons why people.
Stephen Walker: or probably not engaged. But but I think, generally speaking. We're very generous congregation
Stephen Walker: you know, with our resources and time. But sometimes we get things done. But you always see most of the same people doing those things.
Stephen Walker: you know. And so it'd be, it'd be nice to have, you know, more diversity in those areas. And so we're trying to figure some of that out. I mean, you know, we're working on some of those things. And I think the other thing that we're working on is leadership development which is related to that sort of
Stephen Walker: we're bringing leaders along. But you know, trying to just accelerate that, you know, giving people opportunities to take leadership roles. I think that would be another thing that we, both men and women that we are wanting to use. The old model of modeling leadership
Stephen Walker: is sometimes it's not enough that you know you have to do more than this model leadership and and hope people be aspirational. They want to follow those steps that that's not necessarily the way it works anymore. We know that. So you have to be much more intentional. You have to pour more into people, you know, to get them to do certain things. And so just having that kind of mindset and realize that that's going to be a part of the job.
Stephen Walker: you know, it's just kind of part of what we are challenged with right now.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, yeah, I, I could tell another story real quick. You know, we've financially.
Steve Awtrey: we're doing fine. But we're not meeting our budget but we didn't meet our our expenses either, so we're but we have money that we've put aside for a rainy day, so to speak, and our one of our mission efforts was a church, I mean a team that we sent out from our our church 30 something years ago to Marseille, France, and they had an opportunity to buy
Steve Awtrey: a a pretty good facility which, and they've been praying about it. And so.
Steve Awtrey: as elders, we decided that we were going to give them a hundred $1,000 out of our, you know. And we really.
Steve Awtrey: we were doing okay, financially. But kind of nervous. But we thought, this is, we're doing this in faith. And we really appreciate. We know what they're doing is incredible. And they had to raise over a million dollars. And they did. And we felt like this was, God was working here, and so we wanted to to help. We wanted to bless them with that financially.
Steve Awtrey: So I that's 1 thing I really appreciate.
Stephen Walker: Yeah, oh, yes, and that that didn't come out of our operating budget that came out of reserves. And so things that makes us more comfortable. We took some of that comfort away.
Stephen Walker: And put it in work for God's kingdom in another part of the world. Right? So we became a little less comfortable for the work of the Lord is kind of one way of looking at that came out of reserve, not the operating budget.
Christopher Jackson: Well, I'm I'm glad you I I think you know that's another one of those things that you could tell a lot about a church especially church leadership. By
Christopher Jackson: the way, they talk about and handle, you know, finances. Cause I
Christopher Jackson: I think that's 1 of the things I've just seen
Christopher Jackson: rip churches apart, you know. Is
Christopher Jackson: especially, you know, these last few years, like during Covid, you know, when suddenly and
Christopher Jackson: a lot of there was a lot of uncertainty, you know, surrounding things like budgets and giving
Christopher Jackson: So it sounds like you guys have a pretty healthy attitude towards that.
Steve Awtrey: Okay.
Christopher Jackson: Is that is so so I guess you guys don't don't carry like a lot of of debt with you. Is is that what I'm hearing.
Stephen Walker: Where are we?
Stephen Walker: We don't. We don't have a lot of that. We we own a couple of rental properties that are behind our building. That we own free and clear
Stephen Walker: we we do have some capital things that are coming up that we're going to have to address sometime in the future, like we got to get our roof replaced, and some point we have to deal with the parking lot. So those are huge capital expenditures that we're going to have to figure out how to take care of those. So we, you know, our building is not paid for, but it's close.
Steve Awtrey: It's almost yeah.
Stephen Walker: Yeah, so so that that's something, too. So so yeah, so we we are in a healthy spot. I mean, we could like a lot of churches are given. He's been down the last few years.
Stephen Walker: but you know we you know God is providing God is providing. And so we're we're maintaining.
Steve Awtrey: It's a kiddo.
Christopher Jackson: Sounds good.
Christopher Jackson: And so what you you guys have talked some about
Christopher Jackson: a couple. I'm hearing a couple of things, you know. You want to grow younger.
Christopher Jackson: you know. Pass on to the next generation of believers I'm hearing you talk about. You want to grow in your
Christopher Jackson: what's the right way to say this?
Christopher Jackson: the capacity of of or maybe the percentage of people who are actively participating, you know, in the life of the church and doing the work of the Church. What are other
Christopher Jackson: goals or dreams that you see? You know when you look into the next 5, 10, you know 15 years, you know. What are the things that you hope to see? You know Mcknight crossings become or or do as a as a church.
Stephen Walker: I think the leadership development is one. I think we we realize as elders that
Stephen Walker: we have a shelf life.
Stephen Walker: We want to make sure that we're bringing guys along and couples along, really, because we were shepherd couples. So I think that's 1 of the things that we definitely want is, is that
Stephen Walker: And then we we want to just be a a relevant church. Right? We wanna make sure that
Stephen Walker: we're not so guided by tradition. And the way we did things. But we don't want to compromise God's Word or God's principles, but we want to be a church that's relevant that has a voice where the community can hear us. We want to have a
Stephen Walker: we're gonna break through the noise right? And we realize that there's a lot of you know. There, there's a quite a bit of going on in terms of
Stephen Walker: the church is not as thought, not thought of the same way as it was a generation ago. Right? It's not the standard of a community here was generation ago, but we still want to make some relevance in our community. So people can have an opportunity to know the God that we know.
Stephen Walker: That's and so and so we wanna we wanna figure out how to
Stephen Walker: maintain a voice that has some
Stephen Walker: that can speak to the generations in ways that they can hear God.
Stephen Walker: you know, and so using the right language, using, providing the right opportunities, and, like you, being a spiritual director, that might, you know those kind of things would be open to hearing those kind of things that might allow us to have a a way to to help people to hear.
Stephen Walker: That's what we want to do. We just want to become better at helping people to hear.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah.
Christopher Jackson: Thank you.
Christopher Jackson: I there was something else I was gonna I was about to ask. Oh, yeah, you mentioned
Christopher Jackson: you mentioned just now shepherding couples. I I think I've seen some churches that
Christopher Jackson: as a matter of fact, the the church we attend now, I think
Christopher Jackson: sometimes uses language like shepherding couples but it doesn't really feel like shepherding couples all the time, you know.
Christopher Jackson: you know, they're there are places where you know the the
Christopher Jackson: women of of our elders are heard, but then there's also a lot of places where they're where they're not
Christopher Jackson: And and so I'm always curious when I see you know language like shepherding couples, is it? Is it? Truly, you know,
Christopher Jackson: a partnership in that, you know, shepherding role, or or is it kind of like
Christopher Jackson: And and I I don't mean for this to sound too aggressive, or anything. But you know, is it?
Christopher Jackson: We've so sometimes what it comes across as to me is,
Christopher Jackson: we don't want it to look like on our website or in our directory that it's just a bunch of men, you know, shepherding this church. And so we're gonna put our wives in our photos with us and call it shepherding couples. And you know, if if there's a
Christopher Jackson: woman in the church needs a little bit of shepherding, you know we'll we'll let them, you know. Step in and take it. Does that?
Christopher Jackson: Do you understand?
Stephen Walker: Yeah, what I'm getting at.
Stephen Walker: That's a great question. And and I'm a, it has a couple of different levels to it. Answer to us. Okay, first, st I think the 1st Level is sometimes you have your the female public voice.
Stephen Walker: She may not be comfortable, having a public voice sometimes. Right, you know, just kind of based on how she see herself in the kingdom, and and how she's been brought up in the kingdom, so she may not feel comfortable having a public voice, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have influence in some other ways. Right? So even, I think I think most of us would say is that when we are
Stephen Walker: are talking to our spouse about different things, they're shaping our thought process.
Stephen Walker: You know, they're shaping our thought process and so, and when we address something
Stephen Walker: quite often is being addressed with our wives, influencing how we are addressing it.
Stephen Walker: you know, and so so from that standpoint. But then there's very visible ways where we will do things as couples, you know, with other people like mentoring
Stephen Walker: younger couples, you know. And that that's in a very visible way, or
Stephen Walker: or our wives will maybe mentor another younger woman right? That, you know. And then our wives bring some of that back to us. And then we can understand what went on and how you know what the interaction was like. Now, when we interact with that person. Now we have a better level of understanding of who that person is and where they're trying to go. And maybe some things are challenging with. So now we can become better shepherds based on our wives ability to be able to. So it it may not look like we're always doing things in tandem.
Stephen Walker: you know, but we're definitely doing things that connect us, and and that we're acting as shepherd shepherding couples in so many different ways. And so so I think that's how it re reflects itself. In in that way is that it's just. It's just our wives are visible and active in so many different areas and and then we get the benefit of that.
Stephen Walker: you know, by fearing the influence.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. And just I'll tell you my personal situation. My wife is introverted.
Steve Awtrey: She was one that back 25 years ago, at our church.
Steve Awtrey: We had this. The elders had studied and decided women should take a bigger role, but we weren't doing anything. So my wife went to the elders and said, Why are we not doing anything? And she was a perfect voice for that, because that's the last thing she wanted to do.
Stephen Walker: But but she.
Christopher Jackson: Your wife and my wife would probably get along.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. And and then also the situation with my wife. She was working full time, and she was responsible for her mother and her elderly aunt, and then also her elderly uncle. But he he died, and so she didn't do a lot of
Steve Awtrey: shepherding, or or a lot of even work with the church. Her. Her plate was filled
Steve Awtrey: fuller than what she could really handle, to be honest with you, and so I I wanted her to do ministry with me, but she couldn't, because of the situation. She retired almost a month ago.
Steve Awtrey: and so
Steve Awtrey: I'm really looking forward to her becoming more connected with different things tomorrow night. We're having dinner with a couple that have started coming about a year ago, and
Steve Awtrey: stuff like that. We were just weren't able to do that, but we're able to do some more of that. Now we're going to do more of that. So
Steve Awtrey: shepherding couples, you know. It's each couple really to be honest with you, defines it differently, and what the role is depending on their availability and their gifts. We, as a
Steve Awtrey: eldership.
Steve Awtrey: we're probably divided on this, but we don't think it's right now we're we don't think it's appropriate for us to have women elders
Steve Awtrey: that could change in the years to come. But
Steve Awtrey: we're not there yet, but but there's some of our elders think it's okay, but but we're we're not there as an eldership or as a church. We don't think the Church is there yet, either
Steve Awtrey: that help answer your question about.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, I think, so, yeah,
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. So all right. Well, thanks for meeting with us. We appreciate.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, take it, this is good. I I'm sorry I didn't mean to cut you off. I.
Steve Awtrey: Oh, no, just we appreciate this, and we'll get back with you about what the next steps will be. But before we leave, could you lead us in a prayer.
Christopher Jackson: I'd love to. Yeah and and thank you. Thank you both for your time tonight, and and
Christopher Jackson: and I I feel like you gave me some some good honest answers, and I and I I also really appreciate your
Christopher Jackson: I don't always appreciate the kinds of questions I get asked, you know, sometimes in these conversations. But I feel like you guys had had good questions. So I I appreciate the I can tell. There's a lot of thoughtfulness put into it.
Christopher Jackson: This conversation. Thank you.
Steve Awtrey: Good, good, all right.
Christopher Jackson: Father. We come before you, and I'm grateful for this conversation
Christopher Jackson: that we've had tonight and getting to know each other.
Christopher Jackson: I'm getting to know the the work you've
Christopher Jackson: done with me over the last few years, and the work that you've done with Mcknight Crossings the the last few years and
Christopher Jackson: the the the opportunity to for
Christopher Jackson: for me, and and the Steve's to to discern together
Christopher Jackson: How how you might be working in us going forward.
Christopher Jackson: And I just ask your blessing of wisdom and discernment. And foresight would be over.
Christopher Jackson: The the leadership there in St. Louis, and and over me.
Christopher Jackson: And as we ask these questions and ponder these things and what? What? We're asking our our
Christopher Jackson: good questions that are of you.
Christopher Jackson: These are questions that reflect our desire to to know you and to join you, and the work that you're doing in the world.
Christopher Jackson: And so, because these are questions
Christopher Jackson: from you, we ask that you would. You would bless our endeavors to to find those answers. And you would give us clarity and direction.
Christopher Jackson: and the the coming days and weeks and months.
Christopher Jackson: I wanna thank you for the the legacy of work that you've done in these men and in their families and in in this church.
Christopher Jackson: And the the story that you have been telling there, and are continuing to tell there and
Christopher Jackson: and for allowing me to bear witness to that tonight.
Christopher Jackson: And I ask that you continue to bless the work that they're doing and and and their community there.
Christopher Jackson: in West St. Louis and that you would. That you would
Christopher Jackson: bless them even even tonight, and then and
Christopher Jackson: tomorrow, in the in the days to come, that you would bless that community and that church in ways that that maybe even surprises them and is is unexpected. Just show up and and
Christopher Jackson: do something special for them this week. Lord,
Christopher Jackson: I I ask that
Christopher Jackson: the anxieties and frustrations that can surround these kinds of conversations and searches that you would lift those off of our shoulders because those aren't from you.
Christopher Jackson: And that you would give us comfort and peace and grace as
Christopher Jackson: we contemplate these these decisions that are big to us. But are are
Christopher Jackson: just small parts of of the the story that you're telling in in our world.
Christopher Jackson: That you would help us to to relax and
Christopher Jackson: settle into that story, and find ourselves in it, and
Christopher Jackson: thank you for again for this night. Thank you for this
Christopher Jackson: this space. And for opportunity to to connect over
Christopher Jackson: video screens like this? And and and learn about the work that's happening.
Christopher Jackson: And thank you so much for the work that you are continuing to do through us and for us and in us. We pray all of these things, and the name of Jesus, and the power of your Holy Spirit. Amen.
Stephen Walker: Amen!
Steve Awtrey: Well, great, well.
Stephen Walker: This.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, Chris, thank you very much for taking the time out here with us, and God bless you with the stuff you got going on this week at Harding, with all those youth ministers here.
Christopher Jackson: Yeah, you know how how crazy they can be.
Christopher Jackson: Oh, yeah.
Christopher Jackson: thank you. Guys so much. And you know, blessings. You know, and your ongoing conversations. And I look forward to to you know, hearing talking with you guys again at some point.
Steve Awtrey: Great. Okay, thanks. Good night. Appreciate you. Alright. God bless.
Christopher Jackson: Thanks.
Stephen Walker: See.
Steve Awtrey: And been a long time.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stephen Walker: I do. I do like him, though, Steve.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, I do, too.
Stephen Walker: I mean, he's not not a dynamic guy, but he's a guy that I think can maybe equip the congregation, you know.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah. The the thing that stood out most with me was talking about just the spiritual direction, and just how that resonates with the younger generation. I'm like, Wow.
Stephen Walker: Yeah.
Steve Awtrey: Maybe he's look. Maybe he's the
Steve Awtrey: the minister for for what we're looking for growing in I don't know.
Stephen Walker: Yeah. I mean, you know, some something you know, something that we are just not familiar with. That guy could bring to us. That will be exactly what we need, you know, being open to that. So I I would definitely say, let's take them to the next level.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, I agree.
Stephen Walker: You know. Just take them to the next level.
Steve Awtrey: Yes.
Stephen Walker: Cool.
Steve Awtrey: Okay.
Stephen Walker: Man get a good, nice rest. I know.
Steve Awtrey: Well, I.
Stephen Walker: Well, tonight you have such a busy day.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, I've still got another hour and a half of zooming to do.
Stephen Walker: Right. You can do your college buddies. That's right. That should be fun.
Steve Awtrey: Yeah, it's fun. It's always fun. And just so spiritually uplifting. With these guys, they're all great guys. So it'll be good. So.
Stephen Walker: Thanks, Steve. Appreciate it.
Steve Awtrey: Okay, alright. Appreciate you. Thank you. Bye-bye.